Flaps? Flaps? We don't need no stinking Flaps! | FerrariChat

Flaps? Flaps? We don't need no stinking Flaps!

Discussion in '12Cilindri' started by MalibuGuy, Nov 25, 2024.

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  1. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,850
    Sorry for the Film reference (The Treasure of Sierra Madre)

    i actually think that a center full length spoiler would have been a better aero solution.
    Allow the spoiler to act on the full length which would provide a better aero solution and lighter as well since inly one electric motor would be needed and not 2. Tuck it under the central rear lid . Mount it centrally so as not to conflict with the rear hood opening and closing functionality
     
    ab08 likes this.
  2. ab08

    ab08 Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2007
    465
    Yes, and it would also be better aesthetically.
     
    gliazzurri and MalibuGuy like this.
  3. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    8,362
    Bournemouth, UK
    Doubtful, since the electric motor would be much larger, as would the whole device be.
     
  4. Innovativethinker

    Innovativethinker F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 8, 2009
    9,730
    So Cal
    Full Name:
    Mark Smith
    I thought this was going to be an airplane thread. :(
     
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  5. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Veteran

    Jan 21, 2017
    5,777
    France
    Active aero on a car that's now defined as a GT (unlike the previous V12 models, which were supposed to be the range-topping sports cars - but that role is now played by the SF90 line) is questionable anyway.
     
  6. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,850
    #6 MalibuGuy, Nov 27, 2024
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2024
    A single longer wing is the traditional aero solution used in race cars.

    Are you saying that Ferrari is now going to use the side flaps in their future racing models?

    I believe this was a design gimmick and that a better solution could have been employed

    Maybe a single wing will be used in 12cilindri light-weight special variant?
     
  7. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,850
    But on deeper thought the single wing might be as heavy or perhaps even heavier depending in how elaborate the mechanism.

    The Ferrari F80 has 4 electric motors to operate its rear spoiler.

    If the 12cilindri could operate the flaps independently then that might offer some theoretical advantage over a single wing
     
  8. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Veteran

    Jan 21, 2017
    5,777
    France
    Solutions for race cars are the result of both engineering genius and regulation restrictions, and it's often not obvious what the main factor is in the final design.
     
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  9. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,850
    With a road car there are a different set of regulations at play.

    It might be a more freeing environment. Need to keep an open mind otherwise one brings in the old baggage into a new model
     
  10. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    8,362
    Bournemouth, UK
    Aero is still needed when a car is that fast.


    All I said is that a large single wing/flap solution probably wouldn't be lighter, as you purported. Regarding edge flaps, the FXX also had them... I am not saying that it is the raciest solution, but as you said the 12 Cilidnri does not require racy solutions; just enough downforce to stabilise it at high speeds.
     
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  11. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,850
    The world of aero design is elusive. Ive tried to understand the desired effects and the trade offs.

    Increased downforce comes at the expense of drag and yes weight too!. You are totally correct !

    Active is heavier and more complex than non-electtified.

    The height of the top if the body influences the potential effect of the spoiler

    The F80 has a very elaborate rear spoiler which elevates and also tilts.

    Since the 12 cilindri has a taller central roof line does this have an effect on the position of the rear spoiler?

    A fixed simple GTO like tail flip is one of the oldest Ferrari strategies. Not active. East to do.

    The F40 had a taller fixed wing which was continued in the F50 and then abandoned with the ENZO.

    The La Ferrari had a new active real spoiler lip.

    Now the F80 has a big height and angle of attack adjustable spoiler.

    And yes you are correct again that in the FXX cars have a partial side spoiler-but none of those are active in terms of height or angle of attack adjustability

    OK The flaps are pretty cool!
     
  12. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,850
    Since you might be a pilot , I have a question how does an airplane fly inverted?

    The shape of the inverted eing produces downforce Just like a spoiler on a car.

    So the the flaps and trim surface counter that

    And so does the higher throttle input
     
  13. vivg91

    vivg91 Karting

    Jul 5, 2019
    104
    They said in the launch marketing material that they didn't want to compromise trunk space or the trunk opening with a full width spoiler, and the solution was the side flaps. I think they look a bit odd when they're raised, but as long as they do what they're supposed to, it's fine.

    Feels like they could have gotten there with a differently designed lip, but that might have been deemed too visually aggressive for a non-VS car.
     
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  14. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,850
    #14 MalibuGuy, Nov 28, 2024
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2024
    Yes this is what was said

    Im curious about what other types of aero tricks could be used given the roofline shape of the 12cilindri

    In the 812 Competizione, 3 pairs of vortex 'generators are used along the rear posterior element which replaced the rear glass

    The Aperta version employs a high positioned fixed bridge spoiler.

    Perhaps an active high position bridge shaped spoiler could be used on a 12 cilindri light weight variant. No rear glass but a panel with an active bridge spoiler positioned higher up. The active adjustability could provide both improved downforce and reduced drag depending on what was needed?

    With a virtual rear viewing monitor like the 812 competizione, the posterior panel would still open to allow access to the rear boot.

    Anyway just my musings about what a special
    variant could offer- 12 Cilindri Speciale
    (Trickle down some of the other the F80 tricks )
     
  15. Solid State

    Solid State F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
    10,503
    Full Name:
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Aerodynamics is for those that can't build engines.
     
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  16. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,850
    Happened to watch a video about the Lamborghini Countach 2, re-visit.

    Still able to catch your eye with a design based from 30 plus years ago.

    The rear spoiler is a stealthy full length wing which blends into the rear trailing surface and then elevates and tilts when more downforce is needed. Maybe both actions are 'baked' into the gear mechanism so that fewer dedicated electric motors are needed.

    This is a great way to avoid that race car look.
     
  17. Innovativethinker

    Innovativethinker F1 Veteran
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    Aug 8, 2009
    9,730
    So Cal
    Full Name:
    Mark Smith
    An airplane can fly inverted (upside down) by using its control surfaces and adjusting its angle of attack. Here's a simplified explanation:

    1. The Role of the Wings
    • Standard Wing Design: Most airplanes have wings with an airfoil shape designed to produce lift when the aircraft is upright. The curved top surface and flatter bottom surface create a pressure difference that lifts the plane.
    • Inverted Flight: When inverted, the airfoil's typical lift characteristics are reversed. To generate lift while upside down, the pilot must adjust the angle of attack so that the wing still pushes air downward, creating an upward force.
    2. Angle of Attack
    • The angle of attack is the angle between the wing and the relative airflow. In inverted flight, the pilot tilts the nose of the airplane upward (relative to the inverted orientation) to create sufficient lift.
    3. Aerobatic Aircraft
    • Aerobatic planes are specifically designed for inverted flight. Their wings are often symmetrical in shape, meaning the top and bottom surfaces are similar. This allows them to generate lift equally well whether upright or inverted.
    4. Control Surfaces
    • The pilot uses the elevators, ailerons, and rudder to maintain control while inverted. For instance:
      • Elevators adjust the pitch (nose up or down).
      • Ailerons control roll (side-to-side rotation) to maintain or initiate the inverted position.
      • Rudder stabilizes or turns the aircraft.
    5. Engine Considerations
    • Inverted flight may affect the engine. Most aerobatic aircraft have engines and fuel systems designed to function correctly when upside down. Regular airplanes might have limited inverted flight capabilities due to fuel and oil flow restrictions.
    By balancing these factors, a skilled pilot can keep an airplane flying inverted for short or extended periods, depending on the aircraft's design and capabilities.
     
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  18. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,850
    What about the fact that wings create a barrier to free fall. Air must flow around the edges.

    Imagine a tightly crumple sheet of paper falling in the air vs a flat sheet of paper

    The flat sheet of paper would fall more slowly
    If it were moving forward then the new air wouldnt have the time to move around the wing surface and the sheet of paper would fly, without generating lift in the traditional sense.

    The traditional explanation is that if the upper surface has a larger surface area than the bottom surface, lift is generated due to make up for the different air speed --the air pressure effect

    Aero effects are not easy to predict
    Even with computer modeling and finite analysis
    Windrunnel measurements are always needed to confirm effects
     

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