Flexible Rear Wings - RedBull (RB16B 2021) vs Mclaren (MCL38 2024) | FerrariChat
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Flexible Rear Wings - RedBull (RB16B 2021) vs Mclaren (MCL38 2024)

Discussion in 'F1' started by jgonzalesm6, Sep 17, 2024.

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  1. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #1 jgonzalesm6, Sep 17, 2024
    Yes, flexible rear wings were banned in Formula 1 in 2021, starting with the FrenchGP. However, RedBull was allowed to keep using their controversial rear wing design for three more races after the ban was announced. Some TPs even complained that waiting those two races is too long. This gave the team time to develop a replacement part.

    This ban was implemented due to the new FIA F1 technical regulations that outline how much bodywork is allowed to flex under pressure.

    The controversy surrounding the RedBull rear wing began when Lewis Hamilton noticed the bendy wing during qualifying at the BarcelonaGP.

    Here's a video of the RB16B and the Mercedes W12 at the Circuit de Catalunya. You can see the RedBull's rear wing flexes under load more so than the Mercedes rear wing.









    Now let's look at the Mclaren's MCL38 rear wing and how much it flexes AND the "mini DRS."

    McLaren has a "Mini-DRS", which acts on top of the "Flexy wing" -Wing flex: McL > Ferrari >> RedBull
    -McL has a never-seen-before lift of the upper plane leading edge: it's as if the DRS opens partially at high speed, providing a further advantage

    The effect is measurable: McL had the highest top speed when the DRS was inactive despite being slowest when the DRS was open (Data from quali)

    Is this legal?
    -The flexy wing is, as it passed the FIA's load tests. A wing that flexes are 'against the spirit of the rules', but until the load tests change to avoid that such a thing is perfectly ok
    -I'm not sure about the deformation of the DRS plane: I expect Ferrari to protest that, but the outcome is hard to predict.

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    This mini DRS combined with the flexi front wing allows McLaren to use a higher downforce setup. This offers a significant advantage over the competition:
    - Faster in corners
    - Higher top speed on the straights
    - Lower tire wear
    - Easier overtaking
    - Easier defending

    We saw a great example of this yesterday with both Lando and Oscar. They were able to overtake easily and simultaneously defend well, as the mini DRS allowed them to reach higher top speed earlier. By the time the pursuing driver finally gets to use DRS, it’s too late. Charles had a lot of trouble with this.

    This is undoubtedly a clever trick by McLaren, but it is not in the spirit of the regulations:
    - Aston Martin’s front wing was banned halfway through last season.
    - In 2021 both the rear wing and the front wing of Red Bull were banned in Baku after repeated complaints from Mercedes.






    Look at how much the Mclaren rear wing flexes under load compared to the others.






    Here are the technical regs.

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  2. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #2 DeSoto, Sep 17, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2024
    Of course it´s "against the spirit of the rules" but until FIA makes a clarification or alter the test, it´s legal and there is nothing to do about it.

    "The spirit of the rules" is applied with more or less urgency, depending on what suits FIA. As right now they want a closer championship, I suppose they´ll turn a blind eye for a while.
     
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  3. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #3 DF1, Sep 17, 2024
    Yet no overt protest in the press from any team, and yes, could be ongoing and quietly behinds the scenes. Horner and Toto have said nothing openly and neither has Vasseur. IF the FIA wanted to they could open some small investigation but it appears they have no reason to overall. Again we ask for innovation and we complain lol. This also could have been socialized with the FIA by Mclaren at some point as well, and with nothing done so far because they saw no issue?
     
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  4. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #4 william, Sep 17, 2024
    The F1 technical rules are too restrictive anyway.
    Every time a team gets a slight advantage, it's thanks to some liberal interpretation of the rules.
    As a F1 follower, I would never blame a team for pushing the envelope if it disturbs the established order.
     
  5. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 jgonzalesm6, Sep 17, 2024
    The FIA:

    1) Wants Mclaren to win.
    2) Doesn't like RedBull.
    3) Veiwership is up and attendance is up at all venues meaning $$$$$$$$.

    Of course the FIA will turn a blind eye to Mclarens rear wing. The complete opposite of what happened with RedBull in 2021.
     
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  6. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #6 DeSoto, Sep 17, 2024
    More than innovation this is a clever cheat. Anyway, everything is valid in love and Formula 1.
     
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  7. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

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    #7 jpalmito, Sep 17, 2024
    To be honest, impact of this mini DRS is certainly significant .
    The duel between Piastri and Leclerc ?
    For sure.
     
  8. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 william, Sep 17, 2024
    Just let the other adopt it !
     
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  9. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #9 DF1, Sep 17, 2024
    WE are literally driving F1 to a spec series with each banned innovation and complaint. The rules say the wings can only flex a given amount per the tests. Wings have been monitored since before summer break. Now its all just cheating lol. The soap opera is found here not on the track lol. Again if this was Ferrari it would be silence for the most part here. When the FIA make a statement about this then we might have some insight onto what this is and the rules impacted etc.

    Given the small disparity in pace between most of the top teams the impact is small and for the most part, Charles specified why he lost. He did not say anything about this but did blame himself for not defending well. He lost because Oscar was bold as he was in Monza. We had a driver make a difference. Now its a wing conspiracy lol. We know nothing until the FIA provides an insight, if ever.
     
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  10. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #10 DeSoto, Sep 17, 2024
    Well, I´m not complaining about anything: loopholes are there to be exploited.

    The issue is how FIA deals with these situations, but I won´t repeat myself.
     
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  11. USMCS6

    USMCS6 F1 Rookie
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    #11 USMCS6, Sep 17, 2024
    Seems to me you can't have it both ways. I'm good with finding something clever and innovative, thats F1. That said, especially on the rear wing, the regs seem pretty tight. Thats a violation. They need to remove it.
     
  12. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

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    #12 jpalmito, Sep 17, 2024
    Nobody here knows if this flexing rear wing provides real advantages.
    I just really hope Fred and Co won’t be naive when interpreting the technical rules.
    No more no less.
     
  13. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #13 william, Sep 17, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2024

    No, just ignore it.
    The wings will always flex anyway to a certain degree. we are splitting hair .
    The chassis flexes, so are the body pannels, the suspension parts, etc ...
    Even skyscrappers are flexing, for Christs'sake !!!
     
  14. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 jgonzalesm6, Sep 17, 2024
    Possibly(F1 wings flexing) but the FIA will clamp down on it on the 2026 regs regarding the frequency of flex or latitude of flex or degree of flex that are allowed on the front wings and rear wings. Yes, they flex under load and I'm sure they(FIA) understand that as well as the videos depicted here in this thread.
     
  15. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 william, Sep 17, 2024

    Well, once more the FIA is on the wrong page !! :mad:
     
  16. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 jgonzalesm6, Sep 17, 2024
    I believe the question to ask is "When will the FIA intervene?"

    Had this been a RedBull innovation, I'm more than sure the FIA would have intervened with immediate effect.....even more so IF this innovation had been introduced before the summer break thereby RedBull running away from the WCC title standings. The FIA can't have that-->another 4th year of RedBull dominance.
    So the FIA will keep things as they are for now since the top 4 teams are somewhat close or have a shot in the WCC standings with 7 races left.

    That's my 2 cents of how or when the FIA should intervene. In other words, it's at their discretion.
     
  17. TopspeedPT

    TopspeedPT Formula 3

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    #17 TopspeedPT, Sep 17, 2024
    You been away the last 3 years? Red Bull drivers/team rarely get any penalty.

    FIA let Red Bull cheat for way too long and viewership went down. Now we have fair competition, FINALLY!
     
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  18. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 william, Sep 17, 2024
    Never I hope.

    F1 can't have a witchhunt every time one team start winning.

    All these accusations over the years of cheating in turn against Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari or McLaren are just paranoia.
     
  19. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    #19 SS454, Sep 17, 2024
    Not that easy to do with a budget cap as well as limited CFD/Wind Tunnel time. Plus it's so close to the end of the season.
     
  20. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    #20 SS454, Sep 17, 2024
    Absolutely you can have a "witch hunt" when a team starts winning. The winning cars need to be scrutinized to the maximum to ensure they are winning fair and square. McLaren is clearly showing they have a device that goes against "the spirit of the rules". The FIA have already set precedent when it comes to spirit of the rules and rear wing flex. This isn't even a witch hunt, it's everyone pointing out the obvious.

    Red Bull flexy rear wing and possible asymmetrical brake system
    Ferrari bypassing fuel flow sensors
    McLaren flexy front wing, mini drs
    Mercedes DAS, flexy front and rear wings, oil burning, manifold sensors, collapsible suspension

    All can be considered clever engineering and most may get through the FIA's legality tests, but all are against the spirit of the rules.
     
  21. SS454

    SS454 Formula 3

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    #21 SS454, Sep 17, 2024
    This video suggests that McLaren has used the mini drs at Spa, Monza, and now Baku. So only low downforce tracks. It may still be used in Mexico, Brazil and Las Vegas.

     
  22. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #22 william, Sep 17, 2024
    Well, let them adopt it next year then, if they didn't think of it first !!
     
  23. USMCS6

    USMCS6 F1 Rookie
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    #23 USMCS6, Sep 17, 2024
    The rear wing rule seems pretty clear. I read lots of construction specifications and some are fairly open. The rear DRS spec seem very cut and dry. 3.10.10.G. "any alteration of the angle if incidence shall only be commanded by the electronics". That is not ambiguous at all. One could argue it passed the static deflection test, but the rules dont stop there.
     
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  24. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #24 jgonzalesm6, Sep 20, 2024
    Singapore 2024 FP1 over.

    Mclaren told by the FIA to modify their flexible rear wing and "mini DRS."
     
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  25. absostone

    absostone F1 Veteran
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    #25 absostone, Sep 20, 2024
    Mc Blatant cheating ala Merc
     
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