Flying a friend's Citation to Europe | FerrariChat
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Flying a friend's Citation to Europe

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by 2000YELLOW360, Jan 13, 2007.

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  1. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #1 2000YELLOW360, Jan 13, 2007
    My buddy, Ricky is in Europe, and his plane is in Texas getting fixed. Looks like it's going to be done sometime late this month. I told him I'd deliver it if it's done before the 430 arrives. Should be a neat trip, it's a 501 SP with the Eagle Conversion, so it's got decent legs (for an older citation), and is fairly fast (390kts on cruise). Anybody else ever fly a light jet over to Europe? I'll be taking the northern route through Iceland.

    Art
     
  2. LetsJet

    LetsJet F1 Veteran
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    #2 LetsJet, Jan 13, 2007
    Are you planning on flying this single pilot? With the range, where are you planning on stopping?

    And no, I've not done it..... Frankly I prefer 777 1st class over the pond.

    But, I could be enticed with a GV (G550)
     
  3. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 donv, Jan 13, 2007
    I've done it a number of times, alway in Falcon 50s, however (but at least once non-RVSM, which limited the range).

    Considerations: RVSM approval? (And I mean an LOA, not just that the prior owner or somebody said it was RVSM approved)

    Nav equipment? HF Coms?

    You can do it with one long range nav and VHF coms, but it's pretty restrictive.

    Also, make sure you have some lead time to get your approvals (MNPS, etc) in order. I believe even the "blue spruce" (single long range nav) routes require an LOA.

    I would strongly recommend getting an experienced contract pilot to go with you. It will make the trip much more enjoyable and lower the stress level considerably.

    If you can, take a good international course. Even before that, call up Jeppesen and order a North Atlantic high trip kit. The North Atlantic charts (I can't recall if it's 1 and 2, or which ones) have all the information you'll need to start thinking about the trip.

    In the end, you'll want to have Universal or someone take care of flight planning and handling, but the North Atlantic charts will get the process started.

    EDIT: One other thing: leave yourself plenty of time, especially if you have to stop in Greenland. I don't know the range of the Citation with the Eagle mod, but the 501 I used to fly would definitely require a Greenland stop. The weather and approaches are not easy there, and you can end up getting stuck for several days (or more) trying to wait out the weather.
     
  4. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #4 2000YELLOW360, Jan 13, 2007
    I've flown this route before. Did it in 99 with my model 58 Baron, so I've got the contacts that I made then. The Citation does have all the approvals, it has a glass panel (Collins ProLine) and sufficient range (about 1600 natuical miles). The conversion is the Williams 44 turbines, which provide a lot more speed, and a lot greater range. We'll use a handler, not sure which one though. Last time I went, I didn't and didn't have any problems, but the fuel will be a lot less with a handler.

    Thanks for the advice though, it is a pretty great trip.

    BTW: have you ever had to fly up the fiord instead of the approach into Greenland? That's how I went in 99, like flying through a canyon. Did take an experienced pilot, Bill Cox, of Plane and Pilot.

    Art
     
  5. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 donv, Jan 13, 2007
    With 1600 mile range, you should be able to bypass Greenland, which makes it much easier (especially eastbound). I've never landed there (sounds cool!), but I've certainly considered it in the past.

    Make sure you actually have TWO long range navs-- that's not common in any of the small Citations, glass or not. Also, you'll still need to get MNPS approval, unless the airplane has done the trip before with the present owner/operator. It sounds like maybe your friend does frequent north atlantic trips? In that case, I'm sure it's all good.

    The Williams conversion looks like a great addition. Sounds like a very nice airplane.

    As far as using a handler, I guess it depends on where you are going. In London, at Luton, Signature can take care of everything and there's really no need for a handler. If you're entering the EU at Shannon, you probably want some sort of handler (I can't remember who the handling company was there, but it would be in the international Ac-U-Kwik).

    However, for flight planning (as opposed to handling), I would never consider flying in Europe or the North Atlantic without using a service like Universal. It's not like here where you can call flight service-- you really need someone negotiating with Eurocontrol on your behalf, and Universal will take care of all the hassle for around $13/flight plan.

    Do you have much Citation experience?

     
  6. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #6 2000YELLOW360, Jan 14, 2007
    Not a lot of citation experience, but I suspect I'll have quite a few more hours after this is done. Rick has flown this route before so all of the permits have been taken care of. I'll enter the EU in Iceland, same as the last time. I will have a co-pilot with me on the trip, who's made the trip more than the one time that I've done. Should be fun. Just going over, and coming back fairly quickly though, won't have much time to do anything in Europe this time, but I'm coming back in early June of this year for the TT at the Isle of Man.

    The Greenland landing is indeed something to be avoided if you have any sort of weather there. The plane does have multiple long range navs, Rick put in a Garmin 430 because he's used to it's function. That's what I have in my Baron (full Garmin planel, with an MX20, with a Sandal EFIS, and I'm replacing the MX20 and Sandal with the new Garmin G600, when it comes out this summer), and I'm debating taking it back to the Isle of Man for the TT's 100th anniversary.
     
  7. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #7 donv, Jan 14, 2007
    Sounds like a fun trip! Enjoy it.
     
  8. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

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    #8 Kds, Jan 14, 2007
    Sounds like a neat flight......will you stop in Gander, NFLD before you go to Iceland ?
     
  9. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #9 2000YELLOW360, Jan 15, 2007
    Gander or Goose Bay. Are you anywhere around there?

    Art
     
  10. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    #10 Gary(SF), Jan 15, 2007
    Hi Art -

    I can highly recommend Irving Aviation in Gander. When I ferry shorter-legged transports to Europe, that's where I plan my stop. Very efficient and friendly, and the jet-a prices are good, too. Enjoy the trip!

    Gary
     
  11. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

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    #11 Kds, Jan 15, 2007
    Art....nope.....YYC.
     
  12. drjohngober

    drjohngober Formula 3

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    #12 drjohngober, Jan 16, 2007
    I know of a Texas based pilot ( and Ferrari owner)...okay, its me .. who would be more than happy to make the journey with you at a great price.... a beer upon arrival in Europe. PM me if interested.
     
  13. bimmer32five

    bimmer32five Formula Junior

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    #13 bimmer32five, Jan 16, 2007
    About how many hours is the flight?
     
  14. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #14 2000YELLOW360, Jan 16, 2007
    About 15 hours flying time to London, then another 3.5 to Maligar in Spain.

    Art
     
  15. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    #15 MarkPDX, Jan 16, 2007
    Took a C-130 from Scottland to St Johns, NFLD with a stop for gas in Iceland last June. It was a fun/easy trip with all the nav toys on board and TACC to handle the flight planning.
     
  16. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #16 2000YELLOW360, Jan 16, 2007

    When I came back from Europe in 99, had to stop in Scotland for gas, and the only approach they had was an ADF approach. Hadn't shot one in quite a while, but I had just put in an EFIS into the Baron, and with the GPS, it showed the runway, so I just used that and the tower was shocked that I was EXACTLY lined up with the runway when I broke out. Didn't tell them I cheated.

    However, the EFIS broke on the way into Iceland, and I had to use the magnetic compass on the ILS into the runway, with a 40 knot cross wind. Good for me that the approach was over the bay. Had to wait a week for a blub for the EFIS.

    Art
     
  17. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    #17 MarkPDX, Jan 17, 2007
    For sure.... gotta use everything available. I flew on a J model 130 a couple months ago and their set up is pretty sweet. If it's an unfamiliar field just set the approach up in the computer and follow the line on the HUD :)
     
  18. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #18 2000YELLOW360, Jan 25, 2007
    Flying out on Tuesday, back on Saturday. Will post pics.

    Art
     
  19. Fastviper

    Fastviper F1 Rookie

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    #19 Fastviper, Jan 25, 2007
    Stop by, pick me up?
     
  20. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #20 donv, Jan 25, 2007
    Have fun! I look forward to seeing the pics.

     
  21. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #21 2000YELLOW360, Jan 25, 2007
    Won't be able to this time, but I'll probably get to take it to Europe again this summer, maybe then.

    Art
     
  22. Westworld

    Westworld Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #22 Westworld, Jan 25, 2007
    Not a fan of the private jet?
     
  23. LetsJet

    LetsJet F1 Veteran
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    #23 LetsJet, Jan 25, 2007
    Just the opposite....... more than you know.

    But for trans con 777 1st class is very hard to beat.
     
  24. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #24 2000YELLOW360, Jan 26, 2007
    It's set: I fly to San Antonio Monday, pick the plane up, then onto Goose Bay where we'll spend the night. Then on to Iceland, and then London. Should be in London by late Wednesday, early Thursday. Coming back on United Saturday, so that hopefully I can pick up the 430 from Ferrari of SF same day.

    Art
     
  25. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    #25 Gary(SF), Jan 26, 2007
    Art -

    Be sure to walk over to the grill-it-yourself steak place, the hotel staff will be able to direct you, pretty good chow all things considered.

    Can't wait to see the 430.

    Gary
     
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