It's in our T&C here.....posting of copywrited material.... You can edit it down....thanks! I guess at the end of the day, it's good to know they are there, if you need them.
The those non-original cars should not be granted a Classiche certificate and should not be allowed to compete with "original" cars IMHO.Those historic races need a "modified" class for non-original cars...
Thanks for the scan. For some reason, my FML didn't arrive. If may just have migrated before I had a chance to sit down with it. Anyway, Nathan, thanks for writing that article. I feel it was a good, "in-depth" look at the program, and it covered quite a bit of material. Actually, I would like to re-read it and digest it before making extensive comments. It does, however, seem that SpA will have different standards for different cars. At least in some instances. If I read it correctly. My only additional initial comments are that I think the program is useful, but I don't see the usefulness of requiring a Classiche certificate for the Historic Challenge. And, at first blush, I kind of like parkerfe's suggestion of a "modified" certification. However, I think it kind of leaves us in the same tall weeds, eventually. And, as far as the "money grab" point, well, Ferrari was not generating any revenue from this sort of activity until the Classiche program was introduced. So, it is, in effect, a new revenue stream for SpA. Maybe they saw an opportunity. Maybe they began to notice that there are a lot of shops that "support" vintage and historic racing activities. These are big money operations, and perhaps SpA saw an opportunity to elbow their way to the table, and in one fell swoop, change the rules of the game to favor themselves (if only SpA can issue the certification, then they're the "authority"). While I am interested in the fact they are consulting with "experts" in the field, that also suggests that you can bring your own "expert" to the table in some way to influence the outcome. Or, perhaps you can "lobby" your position to the experts. Admittedly, you have to know the right people. Again, I'm not sure that this is entirely equitable. According to the article, SpA invested $1.4MM to establish the shop, which is not nothing, but in the context of SpA's annual budget, I should think that this is a relatively small sum. I expect that SpA intends to recover the cost of this investment, and will, in fact, hope to generate a profit from it. That's good business. But, they won't be generating huge profits by charging for the certification alone. As perverse as it may be, they have an inherent conflict of interest: if they find the car lacking, they can fix the problem for $. Thus, the more faults they find with it, the more revenues and profits they will generate. And, while $90/hour does certainly sound reasonable (in fact, very reasonable if the techs that work on the car are superior), we all know that parts aren't cheap when it comes from Ferrari. And, pricing would be very interesting to understand. I mean, if I needed a new motor for a 250/275/330 or whatever, they are rare (if any can be found, at all) and expensive. Frankly, I would think it prohibitively expensive to re-manufacture parts in small batches. And, SpA is not in the business of losing money. Anyway, just more random thoughts to mull on. Napolis, a quick comment regarding the "replica" chassis. Let me say that the Owner owns the original chassis, motor and transmission, and there is no dispute that the car is legitimate in that sense. However, the chassis was structurally questionable and deemed to be unsafe for racing. It had a lot of flex and corrosion. So, the owner commissioned an independent shop to duplicate the chassis, IIRC. I have not seen the s/n stamping on the new chassis. It might indicate in some way that it is, in fact, a reproduced (replica, remanufactured or whatever) chassis. There were also some folks who believe that the chassis dimensions were altered in some ways to accomodate the owner better. To this fact, I cannot speak, as I myself have not measured anything. Anyway, the car was admitted and ran for points in the Historic Challenge. Interestingly, a few cars over the years (and just a few) were run as "exhibition" class cars. There is one specifically that I think of that is now owned by a Forum member here. That car was a "built-up" car and did not receive points during the Historic Challenge races. CW
That's about the money Ferrari Of Houston spent on it's new Body Shop, sounds reasonable... I think cw is spot on in his assesment of Ferrari's reasoning, and the Interview I read (not this artilcle) of the Classiche manager reflected they realized they had lost track of a huge part of their clientele.......The Old Car Guys!
Hi If we are talking about the same car the "original" chassis was already highly modified and raced in the day with those modifications. (I'm talking about a disk brake car) IMO the original modified chassis was fine/safe/etc. A replica chassis was built which was a bit stiffer and accommodated a larger driver. The makers of the replica chassis in all fairness did stamp R under the chassis plate they affixed but the R wasn't visible unless one removed the chassis plate. I was told the car competed in the Historic Challenge with the replica chassis. I was also told that Another competitor with a similar car happened to visit the shop where the replica chassis was being serviced and photographed both chassis. He complained and I was told that the car in question was withdrawn. I did see both chassis. It is also Public Record that David's "0900", not the above car but one with a replica chassis, was allowed to race in the Historic Challenge in Europe and was featured in Ferrari's Press Releases and on their web site. My own personal opinion is that the FIA is on the right track. They seem to be interested in insuring that cars competing in their events are as they were on the day. A replica chassis built exactly as the original was would be OK but larger brakes wouldn't. I also think that very few race cars remain as they came out of the factory for long and in the end they are what they are. Best
They are really just catching up with the Cottage Industry that was learning to CAD/CAM duplicate the old blocks, and recast them, usually improving on known weak spots of the original design..... How do you think all these ancient AutoUnion cars reappeared, in running condition?
Are you saying that the one that had that chassis plate issue wasn't simply dusted off after it was retrieved from Russia?
"I just know what I read in the papers....." Will Rogers "...and Autoweek." BigTex They actually covered some UK guys redoing one for the Audi Factory, it was all on the up and up......I think Audi kept the one, in that case....
Time to stir the pot. Did Ferrari recently make a new block for one of the 250 GTOs? Was it stamped with the same engine number but with a different font die compared to what was original?
Yes. And now it's certified. But from what I understand, it has a special Classiche stamp on it as well.
That is really pretty wild. What happened to the original block? Was it totally unsalvagable? I would have tried everything possible to save it. This brings up so many interesting issues especially the ones Brian touched on. How do you judge that? What does the market say about that? With GTO's trading at 18.2 million $ that's a big decision to take. How about the 275 GTB with the new motor? Would you rather have a new Classiche Motor or a replacement motor that was made on the day? Interesting Times...
I´ll take the latter, thank you very much. Same with the 815 that is in The Galleria. Built by Ferrari, sure, but not in 1947, so it is still a replica and regarded as such by practically everyone.
I've sometimes wondered what will happen to the very early GTEs, most of which seem to have received 128F-replacement engines early in their life. Now we know that factory will accept these engines and I hope the engine swaps were documented in their records... BTW, anyone willing to guess what went wrong with the early 128E-series engines/blocks? Best wishes, Kare
I'd think the 250's block would be similar Judge, a restamping of the original numbers along with that 'Union Bug' thing, next to it......
A lot of folks don't have the patience or skill to rebuild the blocks welding, I guess ..or the hole was too large, missing pieces left on the track, and so forth.. We had a pic on another Vintage thread of a guy running welding beads on the deck to save a block, though....impressive!
Follow issue of FML is also very interesting. Great Article by HR on what it was like on the day and how engines were routinely re stamped and swapped by the factory. Gerald also did a nice follow up and I agree with him that the silence from "The Experts" , except tangentially from HR who was simpling writing a different article, was quite deafening.
