Foam on the filter box | FerrariChat

Foam on the filter box

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Ryan_G, Jan 8, 2022.

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  1. Ryan_G

    Ryan_G Rookie

    Nov 28, 2020
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    Romania
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    BG
  2. afterburner

    afterburner F1 Rookie
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    Jun 20, 2008
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    Urs STEMMLER
  3. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,962
    Isle of man- uk
    The hot starting probably the failure of the fuel pressure accumulator , this is in front of the rear right hand wheel, behind the wheel liner. You will also find the fuel pump here
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    Unrelated. There is usually some sort of "filter" (e.g., a fine metal screen or piece of foam) where the crankcase vapors enter the intake system. I don't see it listed separately in the Mondial 8 SPC so must be considered part of the housing (and, if yours looks like that, I would think afterburner's has been removed and discarded long ago). If it still seems that air can easily pass thru it, and it would do some filtering, just leave it in place.

    For the difficulty hot restarting, the #1 cause is the fuel pressure falling too low, too quickly after engine shutoff -- it should remain something like ~2.7 bar for at least 20 minutes after engine shutoff. If you measure it, and it just immediately drops to zero, three possible causes:

    1. Bad Accumulator. Just check for liquid fuel coming out the vent nipple on the end. On euro versions, this vent nipple is left open to atmosphere (no hose) so it's obvious when liquid fuel wrongly comes out, but on US versions, there is a hose on that vent nipple that conveys any liquid fuel back to the fuel tank - so you have to remove that hose to check for any liquid fuel wrongly coming out that vent nipple. If no liquid fuel is leaking out the vent nipple when the engine is running = the Accumulator is probably OK.

    2. Leaking check valve on the fuel pump outlet. A Mondial 8 would've originally come with the older style CIS fuel pump where the check valve is a non-replaceable part of the fuel pump itself. However, sometimes systems get updated to the later style CIS fuel pump with a replaceable check valve so you'd need to determine which to buy (if the Accumulator is OK).

    3. Leaking o-ring inside the fuel pressure regulator on the K-Jet fuel distributor. (Only go here if the Accumulator is OK, and replacing the fuel pump/fuel pump check valve doesn't fix the trouble.)
     
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  5. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Nov 1, 2005
    4,192
    Canada
    Interesting, the metal piece in the air filter plennum looks like it was made to hold a piece of foam for keeping any oil vapour from clogging up the air filter itself. I have no foam in mine, but it may just be long gone. Is this something that we should all address, a foam that would be used for eg. a lawmower filter would seem a good idea to cut and put in there?
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    #6 Steve Magnusson, Jan 8, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2022
    Not so much as that is only exposed to cool air and very little fuel vapor (while this would be more continuously exposed to hot air and hot oil vapors - which isn't easy for a plastic foam to withstand). Would be better to use the foam out of PCV filter element from a carbed car like this (as that's the same application use - so, hopefully, the Engineer selected an appropriate material):

    https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1970,mustang,5.8l+351cid+v8,1132489,exhaust+&+emission,crankcase+breather+element,4932
    (Not saying that this is the right one to use, just using it as an example. You might need a thicker one.)

    but you'd need to make sure that it is very well attached -- like adding some metal screens on the ends to retain it no matter what happens rather than relying on the material to not break apart -- you don't want it getting sucked into the airflow metering unit ;).
     
  7. Ryan_G

    Ryan_G Rookie

    Nov 28, 2020
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    BG
    So I shouldn’t worry about the “foam”, do I still drive the car until I sort it out (it’s an unusually hot winter with dry roads and no salt )
    Do you recommend a compression test - I’ve read that bad piston rings could increase the gases output and also should I check for clogging in the crank ventilation system?
    I can’t measure the pressure in the fuel system, I will try to find an auto service that could do the test.
    Trying to get some photos under the filter box I found a hose from the fuel distributor leading nowhere, blocked with a plug.
    Also please look at the pump, I don’t know if it is the newer type and the fuel accumulator, it seems to have a hose for return???
    Thank you for your competent answers, I’ll follow your checklist and I’ll start with the accumulator
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  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    It is a little strange (based on your location, Romania) that you have the return line from the Accumulator -- is this a US version Mondial 8? Please confirm your model/version. The photo below describes what to do. You do have the earlier style Bosch CIS fuel pump (so you have to buy the whole thing to replace the check valve):

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    I don't quite follow this. Does this blocked hose come from the air filter housing or the fuel distributor itself? On a US version, this could be the clean air source from the air filter housing for the air injection system. If you have a US version, and all the emission equipment has been removed that might explain it.

    The early 2-valve i models do have a reputation for bad ring sealing, but the usual symptoms are excessive oil consumption and excessive smoke out the tailpipes. Unless you are having trouble in those areas, I wouldn't worry about it.
     
  9. Ryan_G

    Ryan_G Rookie

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    #9 Ryan_G, Jan 9, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
    It’s a Mondial 8 EU, unfortunately I don’t have the service history but it’s clear that it was first sold in Italy.
    The hose comes from the airflow sensor, (sorry for that), I think it should connect with the air valve 115223.
    What’s the point in cutting that hose?
    Maybe someone added the fuel accumulator hose to the tank to stop it leaking?
    About smoke.. a lot of white smoke for a couple of minutes only when the engine is cold. I can’t say anything about oil consumption yet, I only did 500km after the oil change.
    Please find below the photos
    Thank you
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  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    You are using some incorrect terms. The hose 41, that you've highlighted in yellow, connects the airflow metering device to the auxiliary air valve (AAV). The way it is supposed to work is, when cold, the AAV is slightly open which allows (clean extra) air to be drawn out of the airflow metering device, thru the AAV, and into the intake plenum. Because this extra air is being drawn out of the airflow metering device, this deflects the airflow metering plate more downward = deflects the fuel distributor plunger more upward = adds extra fuel. Adding this extra air and extra fuel at cold start-up increases the cold-running RPM. What you have now is unclean, extra air will flow thru the AAV and into the intake plenum when cold, but no extra fuel will be added. It's possible that your system is tweaked-up very rich, or your WUR is wacky, so you still get an increased cold idle, but what you have is not so good. Obviously, your Mondial 8 has had some pretty poor serious molestation so wish you luck in getting it all sorted. Do you have a copy of the Mondial8/QV WSM? If not, you can get a copy here (Chapter D covers the Bosch CIS K-Jet without Lambda system used on your model):

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/z99soo68ny9n2qa/Mondial8qv_workshop_281-83.pdf?dl=0
     
  11. Ryan_G

    Ryan_G Rookie

    Nov 28, 2020
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    Thank you for the quick response and for explaining how the AAV works; sorry again for using wrong terms, I’m still learning.
    I really like the car, so far I’m very optimistic and determined to sort out all the problems while keeping it original
     
  12. Mondi Cab

    Mondi Cab Karting

    Oct 9, 2019
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    EU
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    J.Schulz
    Hy Ryan_G and all respondents,

    I think you should defenitely do a compression test. That foam of yours is not normal. The only thing that should be sucked up that hose is oil-containing-fumes, reason for which it is led back into the combustion chambers. (on some old motorcycles and racing cars it is just ventilating to ambient, and you can see (and smell) it.
    It merely looks like slight blue air, but defenitely not like that foamy sludge you have there.
    The crank contains OIL, and that would be showing BLACK foam if any. (yes the oil you pour in is yellow, but in these older engines it'll turn black in no time).
    The color of your foam would worry me.
    It is possible your car is mixing oil with either:
    Coolant >>> bad head gasket
    Gasoline >>> bad piston or valve
    A compression test would reveal the latter, for the first you may want to drain both oil and coolant and check for contamination. (if OK you can pour both in again, so it is just cost of work).

    I hope I AM MISTAKING, but the above is really not that hard nor expensive to run through.

    Good luck and motoring,

    Mondi Cab
     
  13. Ryan_G

    Ryan_G Rookie

    Nov 28, 2020
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    The foam smells like gasoline and oil. The coolant is clear, doesn’t look contaminated in the expansion tank and also it doesn’t seem to burn oil, the smoke is clear (maybe a bit rich) when the engine warms up.
    I’ll do a compression test at least to eliminate one of the suspects. But.. that will have to wait, I can’t move the car because of the snow
    (In the meantime I have ordered the pipe 116307
    that connects the fuel distributor to the AAV and various other parts)
    Thank you! I’ll keep you informed
     

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