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FORMULA 1 MYWORLD GROSSER PREIS VON ÖSTERREICH 2019: RACE ▄▀▄▀ SPOILERS ▀▄▀▄

Discussion in 'F1' started by SPEEDCORE, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

    Apr 19, 2006
    4,684
    Stuttgart, Germany
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    Peter Singhof
    Well, Max complained on the radio that Leclerc turn in on him

    Gesendet von meinem SM-G930F mit Tapatalk
     
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  2. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Deflection is a true indication of guilt. This is what's wrong with the drivers attitude today, they know full well the FIA are listening and behave like kids in a playground, pointing fingers...he did it.

    pit to car radio only and stamp it out.
     
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  3. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Agree, good job there are bad decisions in F!, keeps us all going for 2 weeks and is more entertaining than the race itself.:)
     
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  4. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,685
    #529 DeSoto, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    I think Cyril Abiteboul said, after the Canada issue, that everybody should seat and have a talk about these issues or there would be more problems. That´s exactly what happened and what will happen again. I suppose that having "flexible" rules makes life easier for FIA and stewards, so there is not any real intention of putting an end to this

    We´ll have to live with it: sometimes it will go against us, sometimes won´t. Sh*****t.
     
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  5. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    3,523
    Cheshire
    Why are so many people arguing that the guy in the lead who has the corner and is powering out under control and perfectly on the racing line should slow down for the second place driver who has lost the place and hasn’t had the presence of mind to realise that and lift off? Why? Max did nothing wrong. It’s as simple as that and leclerc should have been penalised for causing a collision with Max. The snowflake stewards have got to sort their act out. They messed up in Canada and they messed up in Austria. Totally inconsistent.
     
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  6. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    7,288
    Still bitching about Seb in Canada? LOL.
     
  7. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,685
    The rules say otherwise: you have to leave room if the other car is next to you. Maybe you don´t like the rules (I don´t either) but they are what they are.

    Why only sometimes the rules are enforced is the problem.
     
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  8. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    3,523
    Cheshire
    But that's my point. Leclerc didn't leave room for Verstappen and caused the collision. Everyone knows that if you are cornering in race car at maximum effort and on the limit, then lift off, you spin. Vettel demonstrated this many times last season as he demonstrated the skills of a prima ballerina with great success at multiple races. This was the dilemma facing Max. He had no way to change his line without risking a spin. Leclerc obviously had more options, was the second placed driver, and should have lifted. He didn't. He carries the blame.

    Anyway, we move on... the stewards ill conceived decisions are obviously final.
     
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  9. Isobel

    Isobel F1 Veteran
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    Jun 30, 2007
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    Phantom wing change for Lewis was perfect, long pit stop took him out of it and gave him a reason to languish for a change. As for Ferrari and Red Bull, guess they must have found something.in the garage....
     
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  10. fer312t

    fer312t Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2010
    500
    OK o_O

    Uhmm, no... managing trailing throttle oversteer is a question of balance, not a simple action/reaction formula.
     
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  11. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,685
    Maybe you don´t want to punish Verstappen, I could agree with that, but there is not any reason to punish Leclerc: he was on the left hand side of the track, almost over the line, there was not any room for leaving more space for Verstappen. Verstappen, on the other hand, still had a lot of space between him and the apex of the corner. Your reasoning about oversteering when lifting off doesn´t stand: Verstappen in the previous lap managed to leave room without problems. And anyway, keeping the control of his car is his problem, not the other drivers´around him.
     
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  12. Isobel

    Isobel F1 Veteran
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  13. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Discussing is a better phrase really, arguing implies anger. Dont see much of that on here but happy to listen to opinions - Possibly worth reviewing what is deemed the racing line. MV was at least [if not more] a full cars width off the apex (denoted by the red /white kerbs) and couldn't steer to it - reason he had out-braked himself to make the move. His sole approach was to then crowd CL as far as he dare and slow him down so he couldn't undercut. Cynical but showed some racing prowess, had he not hit CL then I would be applauding MV.

    A slow motion of the impact clearly shows forward motion from MV into CL.......the Ferrari moved sideways
     
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  14. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    29,137
    Manchester
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    Bas
    I agree, no penalty for Leclerc. He placed his car where any other driver would have as well. No problem with Verstappen's little touch either. I was surprised to see Leclerc not placing the car on the inside and make max go the long way round.

    This non-penalty however shows how wrong the stewards got it in Canada. It's great they went without a penalty this time but I really do think GPDA needs to have a chat with FIA.

    Less interference from the FIA please!
     
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  15. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Manchester
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    Bas

    Did the meeting actually take place? Or just the suggestion of it?

    Crazy day, I agree with Cyril for once...
     
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  16. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,685
    No meeting happened and the consequences are painful after only two races.
     
  17. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 10, 2007
    16,077
    BaWü
    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144521/why-verstappen-escaped-punishment-like-vettel

    Judging Max Verstappen's Austrian Grand Prix-winning move on Charles Leclerc alongside recent controversial Formula 1 penalties such as Sebastian Vettel's in Canada has been dismissed as comparing "apples and oranges".

    Verstappen escaped punishment after he and Leclerc made wheel-to-wheel contact that pushed Leclerc off-track while fighting for the win in Austria, as the stewards believed both drivers had a role to play in the incident.

    The clash has been compared to controversial five-second penalties applied at the previous two races in Canada, where Vettel lost victory, and France, where Daniel Ricciardo lost points.

    Those incidents sparked major debate over what should and should not be allowed in F1 and drew severe criticism for the championship as well.

    After the decision not to punish Verstappen, Ferrari F1 team boss Mattia Binotto said "clear rules" exist to prevent drivers in Leclerc's position being forced off the road and that "exactly the same rules which have been applied in past races".

    When asked by Autosport to explain the difference between the Austria lead battle incident and those in Canada and France, FIA F1 race director Michael Masi said comparing such incidents was "effectively trying to compare apples and oranges".

    In the cases of Vettel and Ricciardo, penalties were applied because they were judged to have forced their rival off-track after going off the circuit themselves.

    Vettel went off while leading in Montreal and bounced across the grass, then was deemed to have rejoined unsafely and forced Lewis Hamilton wide as the Mercedes driver tried to pass him.

    At Paul Ricard, Ricciardo attempted to make a pass on Lando Norris but ran deep into the chicane, went off-track with all four wheels but still tried to keep the inside line for the second part of the corner, which forced Norris to go off-track on the outside.

    Unlike Vettel, Verstappen was making a legitimate overtaking attempt when his incident occurred, and unlike Ricciardo, Verstappen remained in control of the car at all times and did not leave the circuit.

    "Each and every incident needs to be considered on its own merit, different corners, different profiles, different circumstances," said Masi.

    "Trying to compare the three of them, they are three very different incidents.

    "In the stewards' view it was a racing incident.

    "It was just good, hard racing from the perspective they saw."

    Verstappen had tried to pass Leclerc on the previous lap at the same place, the Turn 3 right-hander at the top of the hill, but Leclerc held on around the outside.

    When asked by Autosport to talk through the incident, Masi suggested that the stewards felt Verstappen had "learned what had happened a lap earlier" and the nature of the move was fundamentally different second time around.

    "He went into the corner, braked later, Charles obviously saw him coming and stayed out wide," said Masi.

    "And Max, in braking a lot later, 'late-apexed' and at all times was pretty much on full lock and tried to power out.

    "The thing that happened the lap previously didn't occur again."

    In making their decision, the panel of four stewards - which included Le Mans 24 Hours legend Tom Kristensen - looked at previous incidents and past precedent.

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    This included the clash between Hamilton and Nico Rosberg in Austria three years ago, at the same corner as Verstappen and Leclerc collided.

    On that occasion, Rosberg - on the inside, like Verstappen - was punished, but again the incident was considered different because Rosberg was trying to defend the position not make an overtake.

    "The big difference between the footage I've seen of the two is that Nico looked across on that occasion," added Masi.

    "Whereas Max is very much focusing on the corner and getting out of it as quickly as possible."
     
  18. Flavio_C

    Flavio_C Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2012
    930
    And a lot of people of this forum don't have a clue what racing is all about. It's not ballet or synchronised swimming. Max dived on the inside, he thus is on the limit of grip, under-steering, so how the hell can he can "leave space"? Explain to me how he can revert the vector of ~3Gs from pointing to the outside of the turn to the inside?! :confused: This is not a situation where this rule is applicable. That should be the most crystal clear piece of the rule book.

    The reality is that Leclerc was very naive by leaving the inside open for Max. They know each other since karting, he knows that Max does not hesitate. After he realized the error he did, Leclerc tried to go on the outside, praying for the extremely remote possibility that Max would lift off. Max is not Stroll!
     
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  19. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Tony
    This is pretty much how I summed up the event, BUT.......for the steward to say

    "was pretty much on full lock and tried to power out"

    at that part of the circuit and in that position is conclusive that he wasn't in control otherwise he wouldn't have late apexed the corner, he out-braked himself and couldn't do anything until he got the mechanical grip back!!!!!!!!!!!

    It gets worse,

    Good hard racing -

    so they penalise everyone that coughs

    the old adage "stop digging when your in a hole" is poignant in this instance.
     
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  20. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Flavio - So what you are saying is that he misjudged the situation / speed into the corner and didn't have full control of his car [yes I do have racing experience in my youth] It was brave and to be applauded but contact with CL (or anyone else) is not acceptable

    You cannot revert back on the racing line from that situation as that was never his intention, it was not to let CL back in front, had CL undercut him he would have retained the place, unfortunately he chose to mimic the previous lap and it didn't work.
     
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  21. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,685
    I mostly agree with you, but restrain yourself a bit before saying others don`t have a clue, Mr. Smart A$$

    It´s a driver´s job to keep the car under control: if he can´t overtake without loosing the front end, then it means he can´t overtake at all. At least that´s what the rules say.

    I agree in that rules should give some leeway, but the big problem comes when Ricciardo got a penalty at France for a similar thing, Vettel for something similar at Canada, but not Verstappen here. That´s the elephant in the room for me.

    Leclerc was perfect. He knew that, according to the rules, Verstappen had to leave some space in the outside so he could defend his position in the next straight and in at corner 3 with superior exit speed. He couldn´t know that, for some unknown reason, the stewards were going to change the criteria without previous notice. Had he known it, probably he would have played dirtier. If he´s a smart guy, he probably will have learnt the lesson and won´t play by book the next time, for good or for bad of the sport.
     
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  22. itschris

    itschris Formula 3

    Sep 15, 2011
    1,161
    Florida
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    Chris
    Look... there’s no way they were going penalize Max. Not after the Vettel debacle... certainly not at Max’s home race... certainly not at a race that was mildly interesting. And on that... this was not a great race. We’ve just become so accustomed to the crap that F1 has become that if two cars have a total of 45 seconds of actual racing, we all wet ourselves and marvel at the spectacle. Max is Max. I’m not sure that’s a good thing for F1. Again I think the only reason we’re “wow look at Max out that Sh@t move LeClerc” is because we’re all starving for ANYTHING exciting in F1.

    I’m still marveling at how awful Ferrari are as a team this year. Now they ***** pit stops? How is that Williams is leading the grid on that?

    I’m still marveling that the one out crew member didn’t get run over by Bottas.

    I’m still wondering what the hell they were spraying all over Lando
     
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  23. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,685
    #548 DeSoto, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    Jesus Christ, this Michael Masi is full of ****. I can´t believe that someone can get it worse than Whiting.

    The excuse he gives for Ricciardo´s first penalty is specially dubious. Yes, Ricciardo dive bombed, but he didn´t gain the position with Norris because of that. Norris had enough space to take the corner but missed it because he didn´t have power steering.
     
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  24. thirteendog

    thirteendog Formula 3

    Mar 6, 2008
    1,484
    Nashville, TN
    Did you even watch the race?

    Max has a bad start that puts him back to the middle of the pack and claws his way back up. In the last 20 laps he passed Lewis, Vettel, Bottas, and Charles.

    I don’t know what era of Formula One that you remember to be soooooo exciting lap after lap, but we’ve had two pretty memorable ones. The Canadian Grand Prix was a fight every lap for the lead. Ham was constantly in contention. It’s a pity it ended the way it did.
     
  25. ScuderiaRossa

    ScuderiaRossa Formula 3

    Mar 22, 2001
    2,078
    Another nail in the coffin for "modern" F1: racing by artifice, alchemy, caprice. Ridiculous DRS, which makes the hunted a sitting duck, unable to defend beyond one move, mysterious and magical tire compounds that can turn "on" and "off" at a whim, and unfathomable stewards' decisions. Maybe they didn't want the Dutch fans to riot...

    The Spanish TV station I was watching said (translated) that Leclerc "lacked blood". i.e. the fighting spirit. Not even on the racing line! Just leave the door wide open, instead of forcing Max to dive into a closing wedge or take the long way around.

    And Ferrari is ready, willing, and able to shoot themselves in the foot (again and again): maybe they should just sit in the pitman with ALL the available tires! No excuse for what happened with Vettel's stop! Radio problem?! What about a simple "Hey, our driver's coming in"? Really messed up a great drive, that might have altered the race outcome.
     
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