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Discussion in 'F1' started by SPEEDCORE, Jun 8, 2019.
Truer words were never spoken. I’ll go with former British WDCs opinions on this one.
Each incident is treated on its own merit.
The locations change, the circumstances are different, the stewards aren't the same, so obviously the outcome cannot be similar.
Just like in our every day justice system.
Transcript from Vettel's radio (copied from the other thread):
Ferrari to Vettel: “We have a five-second time penalty for unsafe re-entry. Head down, head down.”
Vettel: “I had nowhere to go. Seriously I had nowhere to go. I didn’t see him.”
Vettel: “When you go through the grass and come back you have amazing grip! Where was I supposed to go? I have grass on my wheels. He decides to go that way, if he got to the inside he got past me.”
Ferrari: “OK, stay focussed. Copy that but stay focussed. 10 laps to go.”
Vettel: “I am focused but they are stealing the race from us!”
Vettel "had nowhere to go". Vettel "didn't see him". Vettel complained about "grass on his wheels", and no grip.
That is absolutely NOT a block.
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The aerial shot on the F1 page shows pretty clearly that he veered towards LH once he was off the grass.
And he pushed him off the track.
Anyone remember when the exact opposite happen to Lewis - Ferrari's Felipe Massa was declared the winner of the Belgian Grand Prix after McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton was penalized for cutting a vital corner late in a thrilling, wet duel with world champion Kimi Raikkonen. 2008
Hamilton crossed the line with an edge of 14.4 seconds over Massa in a dramatic race after Raikkonen had crashed into the barrier, but the British driver was penalized with 25 seconds for his illegal maneuver.
He did veer towards Hamilton, and he did force Hamilton to brake and steer off-track to avoid a collision.
A controlled "block" by Vettel? Not according to Vettel's own words: "You need to be an absolute blind man to think you can go through the grass and then control the car."
Vettel claims he had "nowhere to go", and "didn't even see him (Hamilton)."
So, obviously, not a "block" ... according to Vettel himself ... rather, an out-of-control car heading towards Hamilton, forcing Hamilton to brake and go off-track.
Wrong, the two cars were not next to each other, Elton was behind at all times, so he could not be ‘pushed’ off track. He had to gently brake (note, no tyre lock up was evident) to ensure he didn’t clatter into the back of the Ferrari (something he failed to do in Spain with Nico, smashing straight through his then teammate and claiming it was Nico’s job to get out of his way and off of the racing line, something a race leader Nico felt he was entitled to be on) having carried speed through the corner and having better grip from clean tyres, but that’s racing, if you pick the wrong line to overtake on, you either have to hit the brakes, or hit the arse of the other car.
The stewards decision was at best incompetent, at worse, extremely biased towards Mercedes. Maybe sett blatter is the manager of the stewards room these days?
In that case, he CUT THE CORNER, ie, he purposely went outside of the limits of the track to gain advantage.... ie, a clear penalty of course. Not the same thing as what happened today, in avoiding an accident, Seb managed to save the car from clattering into the walls, and Elton picked the wrong line to try to take advantage of the reduction in speed of his competitor..... there’s no illegal move there, or are we going to be calling for penalties to be awarded to every driver that spins his car, or almost crashes, during every race even where they do not impact on any other drivers ability to continue. Elton was not damaged in any way, he never even locked his brakes, so at best he was inconvenienced by not picking the line to pass, which was a split second decision at best. The penalty was ridiculous. Maybe Seb should’ve crashed, parked up, called for the crane and had them lift him across the line, all without penalty, now that seems like the sort of decision Elton receives
By the F1 sporting regulations, a "significant portion" of Hamilton's car was "alongside" Vettel's. The sporting regulations only require the front wing to be even with a rear tire, to satisfy the definition of "alongside". In this case, Hamilton's front tire was clearly ahead of Vettel's rear tire ... easily satisfying the F1 definition of "alongside".
While driving himself off track to try to get the position, and not being clever enough to recognise the trajectory of the ferrari which was travelling with all its momentum to occupy the same space as he wanted to try to get to first? I don’t know about you, but when I was racing, the last place I tried to put my motorcycles or cars was in the direct line of impact of a competitor who was wrestling with his car recovering from an incident, maybe it’s just me, but that seems like a pretty dangerous place to be headed. In the sporting regulations, it requires that this is in normal racing conditions, but goes to pot when a car is being brought back under control, drivers are still required to exercise due care and caution to take into account of the CAR IN FRONT and its potential trajectory
And in today’s example Seb was out of control. Funny how out of control only gets you a 5 second penalty, where a purposely corner cut gave Lewis a 25 second penalty in Spa and landed him in third place.. I’d think losing control like Seb did would be an equal or bigger penalty? He lost control. I love the way you reword it as “he avoided an accident
There's no question that Vettel's own mistake caused an uncontrolled car ... with no grip ... to be flying back onto, and ultimately across, the track.
Was it the best place for Hamilton to position his car? Probably not. But Hamilton never once lost control of his car, creating a serious threat to another.
Vettel should consider himself fortunate, that the penalty was only 5 seconds.
Anyways Let's hope its a turnaround point for Ferrari and they can score some real wins this season Forza Ferrari
He exited and prevented a pass and lost. Thats what they penalized him for. Unsafe, no space and he also ensured he would not be passed. We would want LH penalized as well for the exact same if situation reversed. The Stewards have far more data/access than this forum. Ask Max as he has sat with them to gain an understanding of it all last year. Again I would want LH sanctioned for the same if reversed.
I didn’t see the car out of control to such an extent as you did, clearly, the rear lost traction, he wasn’t able to continue his line, he went through the grass, with the resultant loss of grip that caused him to need to slow the car to maintain some semblance of steering, but much like driving on ice (which at that speed, driving on grass is similar) he then had to make small steering inputs to maintain as much of the control as was possible to at least make sure he didn’t hit the wall, or cause a large spin completely. It’s all about controlling the weight of the car, and the movement of the axis of the car, you steer as far as you dare while trying to settle the momentum into a direction that is positive, rather than negative, and actually, in such a situation, it would have been easier for Seb to overreact and panic and spin the car, completely losing any control over where it went, and that would almost definately have caused an accident with Elton, given Elton was (go on, I’ll be nice) using his racers instinct to try to sneak past up the outside, where the clear best route for an overtake would be to have switched up the inside and let Seb hit the wall if necessary, unable to switch back across without spinning with all the weight of his car heading to the right of the track.
I’m afraid I can’t agree with the premis that Elton could have made his move stick on the outside, regardless of the level of control Seb could input to the Ferrari in the incident, it was not the optimum passing move to make, and as we know from the coverage and commentary, not one ex-driver suggested that Elton’s move was the best one, nor that it should have, or would have, resulted in a pass. In fact, all of the drivers were of the opinion Seb did not deserve a penalty, only the ‘inexperienced in f1’ fools on the stewards table came up with such a decision.
One wonders if that would have happened.....
Unfortunately, I think it’s the characteristics of this track that helped ferrari get some performance this weekend. Going forwards, they will still have the same lack of downforce and tyre heating issues at the majority of circuits coming up. The mood in the team though was positive (until the last few laps anyway) that the understanding of the car is improving, and that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Whether that manifests itself in the average race before the end of the year is unclear as yet, it may yet take a complete redesign to be regular winners. Fingers crossed though!
Vettel: Feels weird to cross the line 1st and not get the winner's trophy
Hamilton: All I could do was try and force an error and he made 1
Todays race in 2 quotes.
in other words he re- entered the track in a dangerous manner.
Do you recall Spa 2008 Hamilton got a 25 sec penalty. No one here seemed to be bother much by it either...
It is often said that the stewards are not consistent in their decisions. But this incident was remarkably similar to one in last year's Japanese Grand Prix, when Red Bull driver Max Verstappen rejoined after a mistake at the chicane and pushed Vettel's then team-mate Kimi Raikkonen wide. Verstappen was given a five-second penalty.
Vettel said then: "Look at [the incident with] Kimi, [Verstappen]'s off the track and he comes back and if Kimi just drives on they'd collide. But it's not always right that the other guy has to move. We're all racing, the race is long."
All of which is fascinating, and will drive debate for some time to come. But it rather ignores what one could argue is the bigger picture.
The bottom line was that Vettel would not have been in the situation he was had he not made yet another error under the pressure of battle.
This has become a recurring theme for him in the last two years or so, as he and Ferrari have sought in vain to find a way to combat Hamilton and Mercedes.
Last year, Vettel made five significant driving errors that slowly but surely unravelled his chances in a championship he should at the very least have taken to the final race, and arguably could have won, had those mistakes not been made.
This year, after seven races, Vettel has already made two. He spun while racing with Hamilton in Bahrain, and now this. You can agree with the penalty or not, but the question would not be there had Vettel not made the mistake that led up to it.
I'm shocked by the sheer number of "Ferrari Fans" on this forum who say that Vettel got what he deserved. I applaud and respect Vettel's guts and passion. I have been critical of him over the past couple of months, but he really won me over today. I side with Jenson, Mario, Karun and the multitude of other F1 drivers who have shown their support for Vettel.
The stewards don't give out penalties every time there is a incident. There is no "1st lap let it slide rule" yet we constantly see drivers breaking track limits into the 1st corner and get no penalty. Lewis had more than enough time to slow down, no Lewis milked this penalty by putting his car off the track because that's the sort of "champion" he is. "Lets not blame the drivers"
No penalties here. Yeah very competent
F1 cannot have it both ways. Penalty for leaving track/cutting corners. I dont care who or what team. From lap 1 to finish. That is just common sense.