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FORMULA 1 SOCAR AZERBAIJAN GRAND PRIX 2019: RACE ▄▀▄▀ SPOILERS ▀▄▀▄

Discussion in 'F1' started by SPEEDCORE, Apr 27, 2019.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
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    William Denoyelles

    I just don't understand the Greatest Of All Time label. Who invented that ?
    For me it's a ridiculous concept, to compare drivers of different eras, who drove different cars Under different rules, etc ....
    So I don't subscribe to this GOAT business at all.
    Even if they don't dominate completely, some drivers mark their era by their succes.
    Fangio did it in the 50s, Clark in the 60s, Stewart later, and then Fittipaldi, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Vettel and now it's Hamilton.
    It's also evident that, as technology progresses, drivers depend more on their cars to win than ever.
    We simply cannot change that.
     
  2. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
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    well said
     
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  3. nsxrebel

    nsxrebel Formula 3

    Jan 8, 2004
    1,811
    Alonso finished equal in points with Elton, so yes, he equaled him, and that’s with Ron Dennis favoring his little boy.

    Button had less wins but more podiums/points than Elton.

    The only WDC teammates he had were Alonso (2x) and Button (1x)
    Rosberg wouldn’t be champion till his last year together. Kovalainen was never champion.

    So on average, he doesn’t dominate them.
     
  4. maulaf

    maulaf Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2011
    1,422
    Cape Town
    William has already clarified that in British English the term "domination" is used as "being equal or perhaps marginally ahead".
     
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  5. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    3,523
    Cheshire
    I tell you what, the teams must be complete fools to pay Ham all that cash, and certainly more than all the rest, when he’s not a clear leader of this generation of drivers. Or maybe they know the drivers potential better than Fchats keyboard warriors?
     
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  6. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    +1

    Vettel's dominant drives where more dominant than Lewis'. Vettels drives in the rain in 2008 (Fuji, Brazil and of course his Monza win) where fantastic, especially considering lesser machinery.

    BUT his stock has dropped after being beaten by newer teammates and a series of frankly embarrassing spins over the last couple of years. I say this as a fan.

    Hamilton the same. Beaten too many times by teammates that he was expected to dominate, 2011 when he crashed into anything that was moving (or in fact stationary).

    Neither are or will be GOATs. Both lay a claim on best of their generation, if we can work out what determines a generation. Max has only popped up at the end of their generation, same really goes for Schumacher with the Prost/Senna thing. I don't think Alonso is in the Vettel/Hamilton generation, either, as he was around for a while before it....Alonso is Alonso/Kimi/Button era. Era's overlap I guess.

    Alonso, despite having far fewer wins/poles/championships has a stronger grasp on the GOAT list that Hamilton has. IMO.
     
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  7. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Dec 28, 2005
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    +1 Pedro may have some thoughts on the matter:eek:
     
  8. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    LOL
     
  9. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Mind you I said list, not title ;)
     
  10. ktu

    ktu Formula Junior

    May 30, 2012
    927
    Technically Ham did beat Alonso, thats why FIA placed him above in standings. If two drivers has the same amount of points, FIA will count most wins, 2nd places and so on. So yes Ham and Senna has both beaten WDC team mates, Schumi has never had a WDC team mate.
     
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  11. furoni

    furoni F1 Veteran

    Jun 6, 2011
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    Pedro Braga Soares
  12. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 Veteran
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    [AMuS]

    Video after the Azerbaijan Grand Prix, Michael Schmidt also mentions Sebastian Vettel's theory about the new tyres and the reason why Mercedes always seem to hit the ideal tyre window. (It's in Deutsch with no subtitles)

    Gewinnt Mercedes jetzt alle Rennen? - Formel Schmidt zum GP Aserbaidschan | auto motor und sport (10min 45sec)





    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  13. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 10, 2007
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    BaWü
    How dare they, the teams attempt to dis-credit the ultimate intelligentsia here!! :)
     
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  14. Korr

    Korr F1 World Champ
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    GOATs bring something to the sport that didn't exist before. LewHam is fast and incredibly consistent, but what has he brought to the sport that didn't exist before? Vettel was just incredibly lucky. Alonso was always fierce and hungry even in crap cars. His claim to greatness is being able to pick the wrong team at the wrong time.
     
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  15. nsxrebel

    nsxrebel Formula 3

    Jan 8, 2004
    1,811
    Leaving Ferrari to go to McLaren was certainly a wrong move, no one is denying that, but staying at Ferrari was also not picking the right team either. Had Alonso stayed at Ferrari to this very day, he’d still be chasing that 3rd WDC. His driving skills still show though even in sub-subpar cars that couldn’t finish a race.
     
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  16. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Dec 28, 2005
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    +1 agree
     
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  17. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    As was said last year....Mercedes spec tyres for 2019.
     
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  18. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Not only the car, but the organisation around the team was not right.
     
  19. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    LOL


    The paranoia doesn't stop ....
     
  20. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    100% was discussed.
     
  21. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    Paranoia? Uhh It's perfectly plausible. Remember a tire called Bridgestone and a team names Scuderia Ferrari? They were really successful in the 2000's.
     
  22. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    I think its typical of Ferrari's philosophy to explain their failures by blaming someone else, rather than ackowledging their own shortcomings.

    It's so funny.
     
  23. Korr

    Korr F1 World Champ
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    He had a chance to go to RBR just before they became dominant.
     
  24. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
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    William Denoyelles

    I would have been surprised had Red Bull recruited Alonso; that does against their philosophy.
    Red Bull recruits Young drivers fresh from the feeder categories offering them a binding contract with a small retainer to drive for their satelite team Toro Rosso.
    In case they don't come up to scratch, they get ditched from the Red Bull organisation without ceremony.
    If they do well at Toro Rosso, they may get promoted to the Red Bull team with another contract, still without much money.
    Alonso didn't have the right profile to go to Red Bull; he was already a WDC, and probably would be asking too much money anyway.
     
  25. johnireland

    johnireland Formula 3
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    Mar 19, 2017
    2,216
    So if I understand the flow of the narrative...Alonzo was great but he chose the wrong teams and Hamilton isn't great because he chose the right teams. So Alonzo gets points for making bad choices and Hamilton loses points for making smart choices. And the stats don't really prove anything because anyone driving a Mercedes would a be 5 time WDC.

    Personally I am not a fan of Hamilton's sartorial style...and his hair doesn't do much for me either. And I never met him so I can't make a first hand judgment about him as a human being. On the other hand, almost every time I see him drive he earns my respect. Fangio and Clark and Prost and Senna and Michael were all great drivers in their times and cars. Why do we say that? Because the stats prove it. And Hamilton's stats are right up with theirs.

    F1 history is filled with almosts and one or two timers. Alonzo, Moss, Button, Massa, Andrettis one and two, Montoya, Rosbergs one and two, Villeneuves one and two...etc. etc. etc...they all had style and speed and flash...but in the end they don't have the stats. Mario and Michael have the stats when you add in their Indy car racing...but we're talking F1.

    The only thing that I can compare to what seems an almost pathological hate of Hamilton...is the pathological hate of a certain politician.
     

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