Forzza Timing Belt Kit 308gtsi

Has anyone installed his single timing belt conversion? I would be interested in your opinions and thoughts regarding the installation and was it worth the money and effort?

thnx

Howard
Tr0768

 

I never knew such a thing existed. What would the advantage be to having one belt. You would lose all valves in a failure wouldn't you?

 

Ferrari thought it was such a good idea on the 348 they got rid of it.

Just what is his selling point? What wheel is he trying to reinvent?

 

Yeah, do install it, you have to remove one bank of pistons or one bank of valves to allow for the missing timing belt.

JKidding----------

 

+1 on what Brian said. The problem is that the difficulty in controlling a belt at the same linear speed goes up by the ^2, or the ^3, of the length -- so, even though you have 1/2 the number of belts, the difficulty for the remaining longer belt has gone up by a factor of 4~8 so it's not really a net positive overall thing.

Do you have a link, or photo, for this "kit"? The photo on Nick's Forza Ferrari site for the phase-adjustable pulleys is a little deceptive looking because of the angle that the picture was taken -- this kit still uses 2 timing belts:
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Heck, I'd be concerned about a double roller chain that long and convoluted. A belt? No WAY I'd do it though I have to admit that from what I've read, Forza has a pretty good reputation. But this is one of those things that unlike a Chevy/Ford/Mopar, there is totally insufficient real world, extended mileage data to support this as anything other than the buyer is the beta tester!

 

IMO if a belt failure happens all 8 cylinders and valves are screwed up instead of half. I don't see any reason to do it.

 

I think you misunderstand. If I`m not mistaken Nick`s kit is a two belt system as per original. As I understand it the belts have a different tooth (supposed to be superior) and the cam timing adjustments can be made without fiddling with pins and alignment. Check with Nick to be sure. IIRC this system was designed by an innovative fchatter. I think it`s probably an improvement over stock if for no other reason than the ease of cam timing adjustment.

 

What Nick has done is to manufacture new adjustable sprockets and use 1 singular much wider, thicker and stronger timing belt. I'm not at all concerned about the belt braking for the following reason. When Subaru 1st had rubber timing belts they used 2 belts much the same width and thickness of the Ferrari belt. Many belts broke at 30,000 miles and up. The factory 1st reccomended 60 k intervals then down to 45k. This was due to the wraping of the belts under load and under deceleration

Subaru redesigned the belt system for the Legacy and used a single belt much wider and thicker. We have been servicing Subarus for over 18 years and I have yet to see one of these new singular belts break for any reason or with any number of miles. I'm very much in favor of the singular belt for reliability. These thicker and stronger belts do not wrap up or wind up with either accel or decel.

I was just wondering if anyone had actually installed one of these kits

thnx,

Howard
tr0768

 

tr0768 wrote: I was just wondering if anyone had actually installed one of these kits.

I have a set I would love to install. Unfortunatley I am unable to do so due to manufacturing and design defects.

Nick Forzas belt and pulley system are made by Scott MgGee (SMG2), who appears to no longer frequent this site. After I figure out how to make my own spacers and cut the drive pulleys I.D. down .006" so they with slide on the drive shafts, I "might" be able to use the set I paid Scott $1200 for.

I would suggest anyone contemplating this belt drive system spend their money on something else.

 

I would consider Artvonne's post to pretty much tell us all we need to know about this mod! As I noted earlier, cobbling together parts, sticking them on a couple of cars, doing a few dyno pulls and then selling them is not much in the way of testing. This doesn't matter for many items but when you are dealing with engine-related parts that can cause serious problems if they fail, it's really a crap shoot until there are a LOT of cars around that have proven that the mod is effective and long-lived.

 

Howard -- you are mis-interpretting the photo (if what you are talking about is Nick's photo as shown in post #5). It does not use 1 belt (even though it sort of looks that way) -- i.e., the timing belt does not wrap around the pulley on the waterpump -- it uses two belts just like the stock system.

 

"4 UPPER & TWO LOWER PULLIES WITH TENSIONERS & TIMING BELTS $1,995.00"
From Forza website, it says (in all blue capitals!) BELTS not BELT.

 

Scott, and virtually ANY manufacture of cog belt pulleys are all buying manufactured pulley stock from a very limited group of cog pulley stock manufactures. The material comes in various lengths from 8 inches to over a foot, is truly high grade stuff, and will fully exceed the limits of the 308 engine as well as its environment. The problem isnt the material, and to be honest, Scotts engineering isnt really at fault, the problem is in the "production". I dont have any problem with these parts except that mine were not finished properly (though everyone else's seem to have been, go figure) and the fact that he told me he was making pulleys specifically for the early engines, but in fact never did, and that he purposefully shipped me pulleys for the later engines that he knew would never work on my engine. My pulleys would work fine on the later engines that use the sealed drive bearing, I just wont ever be able to use them on my engines without those GD spacers. I have resisted with all my heart to vent my frustrations here, I never wanted to chase anyone around dogging them over it, I trusted, and I shouldnt have. But I am very bitter about the whole situation, and I get very angry everytime I look at these pulleys. And for that I must speak out so others dont suffer the same fate. But you just cannot fault the material or the concept.

The 308's greatest weakness is, IMHO, the timing belt drive. The belt type used was antiquated before the engines even went into production in 73/74, and to my knowledge, no other automotive manufacture that I know of (excepting Fiat/Yugo) used them after that period. In any event, even Ferrari eventually got away from the trapezoidal belt and advanced to the same modern belt profile as the rest of the world. But these cars were built and engineered to be maintained on a far more time critical schedule than any other timing belt cars in production, and the stock belt design is absolutely fine as long as you maintain the cars "by the book. But there is not a lot of room for mistakes, the design does not allow us to stray to far beyond the limits. Some have certainly gone remarkably long periods without failure, but most havnt been so lucky. I believe in all honesty that 5 years is about the greatest length of time you can go without risking failures. A well engineered pulley that would use a modern belt profile could probably double the belts safe life and advance these engines to an almost bulletproof standard. Pulleys arent rocket science, and neither is a 308 engine. All the imports have aftermarket aluminum pulleys with these same features, and they spin up just as fast (and faster) without any issues. They just need to come from a manufacture that is responsible enough to care about their customers. Without that you have NOTHING but expensive paperweights.

 

Seems like Scott and Clive were banking on their 308 Cogs and Mondial Fusebox to keep their business going.

Pity to lose anybody supporting our cars.

"GT Car Parts" has your Factory looking New fuse box, cheaper then Clives. Only $ 1,100.00 exchange.

(Clive said in Jan 2009,,,, "Fuseboxs $1800 (about US$1200) lead time 6 weeks (some are in production now)
Wiper control units $250 (about US$150) lead time 4 weeks (some are in production now) Delivery will be extra.
Scott will be handling US distribution." That is $1,350.00 plus shipping..)

I got my Cogs from Scotty, They are very pretty, they are going to be machined again, and, I am having spacers made. I can up my space order to 4.
Send me your bottom Cogs and my machinest will fix them.

Edwardo

 

I do agree that it's nice to have someone supporting the cars but I don't agree it's a pity to loose someone supporting these cars if the parts they made were poor/don't fit, whatever. Seems to me it's far better to deal with a known issue - belts/bearings that have to be replaced relatively often - than to buy something that's supposed to be better but, in actual practice, is not.

 

Paul I need to chime in here since I made the 2nd batch of these which I assure you fit pefectly on the drive shafts. I was concerned about the hard anodize building up in the keyway so I decided to mask the bore & keyway before anodizing & just chem film those features ... in fact I was worried about a lot of features on the parts that were not properly toleranced and because another shop had made the first batch I was getting the impression that my expectations for manufacturing tolerances were beyond "the norm" because the last shop had just made them off the solid works files.

I'm sorry this has worked out this way for you guys and FWIW it's how I started my biz ... making blueprints with proper tolerances for outsourcing.

Good luck,

Sean

 

BTW I was going to make adjustable pullies with the stock profile but figured Scott's/Forza pullies would make them worthless. I have a few sticks of the "old belt profile" pulley stock if there's any interest.

Cheers,

Sean

 

This comment caught my eye and I think you know I made the 2nd batch ... I cared!!!!!!! ... if you think I had something to do with the garbage you have let's get it out in the open.

Cheers,

Sean

 

Edwardo,
What engine does your car have & what's being done to your pullies?

To the best of my knowledge, the only engines with drive pulley differences from the 2Vi engine smg2 designed to were the 3.2 engines/late QVs with large outer timing drive bearings, & early carb'd cars like Artvonne's with the seal outside the outer timing drive bearings.

BTW, I've got a set from smg2's initial build, so am keeping my fingers crossed that they don't have problems when I install them in a week or so.

 

Thats about it in a nutshell. But after the Sloan/Kermit thing, I vowed to myself I would never, ever, chase or dog anyone around on here over some problem or issue. I said my peace and thats all I care to do. The idea is sound. Its all in the execution.

 

All of which should have the same bore (I was led to believe) but different hub length ... referrring to the drive pullies here.


The cam pullies had different bores between the 2V and 4V just to keep everything accounted for.


Someone asked me about 3.2 drive pullies being different ... I did just 2 different styles ... a 2v and a 4v ... same bores just different length .... hopefully the 4v works on the 3.2 for you guys.

 

why not measure the i.d. of 'em now? ... that sounds like the main issue on the first batch besides the length for the early 2v cars.

 

I really wanted to leave this alone, but I am not going to sit here and let Sean feel he has any kind of responsibility for this mess of Scotts doing, so I guess its time to spill the beans fully and let the chips fall where they may.

Scott offered to make pullies on this forum by starting his own threads on the subject and it was he who came up with the entire idea and all the engineering. He came across from the beginning as the designer, manufacture and supplier of those pullies. He posted CAD design images he claimed to have made himself, and these images changed as the pulleys took form, as people, including myself, made comments. All this is fully accessable here on Fchat by doing a simple seach. As far as I am aware, and searching through the original pulley threads should verify all of this, my pullies were from the very first batch he made, or had made. When a man designs something (or claims he did), markets it, collects money for it, franchises it (Nick Forza has exclusive distributorship) and sells it, that person take's full and total responsibility for the outcome. If he had the knowledge to design the pullies, and the knowledge to put all the materials together to get the job done, he should surely have had the knowledge to check his parts before putting them in a box and shipping them out. Surely he should have had the presence of forethought to pack my $1200 anodized pulleys safely, or at the very least slip some fricken cardboard between them so they didnt rattleybang together on their way here and get marred up. Guess my comment about Kermit pissed him off more than I thought?

The only real "manufacturing defect" (outside of shipping damage and sending me the wrong parts), is the bore is undersize in the drive pullies. I can solve that problem myself, I have a small lathe, I just need some guts and some time. But if he had just been decent to me about the whole situation and made a good effort to fix me up, nobody would have ever known the problem. And the biggest problem is that he never made any pullies for the early serial numbered engines that use the open drive shaft bearings, he only made the later type that use the sealed bearing. Yet I discussed this issue with him in detail several times by phone and email and gave him engine serial numbers. He knew full well the early cars used a different design, and he shipped me later model pullies anyway. Next, I get an "oh shoot, thats right, you have the early engine", and he tells me he was in the process of getting some made, which as far as I know would have been his second batch. It was also in that conversation I first learned he was having someone else make his pullies. In all the posts he made on Fchat, in emails and in phone converstaions, I was under the impression he was doing all the machine work himself. Later on he tells me he was making a spacer so the drive pullies he sold will work on the early engines. All the time leading me farther and farther along (nope, he never made early pullies). But it gets better. It was only when I finally sent him a bit of a nastygram that he roused for a bit and made more promises to solve my issues. And it was then that he admitted he wasnt making the spacers, you were. Ship them back he tells me, I'll fix you up....

So last year, late spring IIRC, I emailed him (he stopped answering his phone or returning my calls) and told him I was shipping the pullies back that day so he could fix them and gave him a tracking number. I got an email back acknowledging this and a promise he would take care of it. He acknowledged the undersize bore, said he would have it corrected and said he would provide spacers. In all this I remained courteous and never once to this point had I mentioned any problems publically, even though this situation had now exceeded more than a year. I shipped the pullies out priority mail and waited. I got a notice of intent to deliver, and that they left a notice at the shipping address. 7 days later I emailed Scott to ask if he had picked up the parts. "Oh, that was you", he write's back, saying he wondered what was at the post office (like duh, we had this convo already), and said he would pick them up that day. More days pass. A week later I wrote again. In answering, he said he would just let them be returned back to me and would ship out spacers. So now I just shipped parts back and forth across the country for no damned good reason, even though he asked me to do it. WTF?

I was incredulous, but kept my cool and didnt say anything yet, I just wanted my parts back before I exploded. I didnt remind him of the undersize bore issue, 27 times previously had been enough. But if I had only just waited another day before calling the post office. The post office out there had accidently put the package in the lost pile, and it was slated to be thrown out. If I hadnt called they wouldnt have searched, the package would have been tossed that day, and I could have collected the insurance and been done with the whole ordeal. Fate is a mother.

So I am back here at square one. Scott never supplied me spacers, and I went into the pulley thread to tell my tale of woe and left it there. I really thought that once Scott had the pullies, I could ask him to take a look at them, tell him about his crappy shipping job and maybe talk him into some new ones that wernt all banged up. So I am done. Scott can go suck eggs for all I care, I hope he figures out his crap before starting another job he cant complete, and pray that he can stop lying to people or leading people along so other people dont get ripped.


Sean, as far as I can see, you stepped in to try to clean up Scotts mess and your stuck holding the bag. And in this modern age of instant internet, its far to easy for a guy to get caught up in another mans mess. At any point along the way Scott could have (should have)worked with me, answered my calls, returned messages, helped solve my problem, or simply refunded my money. He did nothing. He chose the cowards way out. There is no need to feel guilty by association, and I fully understand your not wanting to have any part of it including spacers. Maybe I will just frame the pulley set as a conversation peice and name it my $1200 mistake. Or is the going rate $1900 now? Wow, thats insane.

The end.

 

I got an email today asking if my pulley set would fit a QV. It is my understanding the QV cams have a different sized hub, a bit larger in diameter than the 2V? Or is it the other way round? IIRC my set would fit the later serial number 2V carbies and 2Vi (all the 2V engines with sealed drive bearings) up through some higher serial number just before the QV went into production.