Fraud in the Dino Auction Action? Not good for buyers & sellers

In all seriousness this one seems to me to be off the scale in terms of the catalogue's description being wrong assuming they are talking about the same car.

 

In this case there is a carefully documented site that tracks make and model (Dinoregister.com), with an owner (Denny Schue, may he rest in peace) who was very cautious about what information he posted, and now run by Matthias Urban who is just as careful.

The history of the car clearly indicates the true mileage, and condition, and on and on. Even just a search for Borrani reveals these cars only:

03586 4 2004 LAWRENCE
03886 5 1989-92 FAF MOTORCARS
04786 4 1986-88 DeCARR
05480 1 246GTS 1973 198? BEVERLY WEST AUTO
05820 9 Jan 06 PAPAS

No mention of the Ponder car. And no indication that they had Borranis originally, either. I wonder did any cars really leave the factory with Borranis?

However, even though we all new the site existed, no one here took a look before the auction to see if what they said about the car was true. And we're all Dino NUTS.

I would think a physical examination of the car would have revealed some of the truths relatively quickly.

Still, in this case, somewhere along the line the history of the car got whitewashed, and the buyer got boinked. I suspect the seller will claim he was mislead by the previous owner, that's sure what I'd do.

About the mileage. In PA, when you get your car inspected, they write the mileage on the sticker at the time of inspection. Do they do that in other states?

DM

 

Never. And in my opinion they look ugly and absurd. Boranis fit a time (50s and early 60s) and its corresponding aesthetics.

I am also convinced my 330 GTC would look better without them (they were an expensive option, and my car had it).

Cheers,

Julio

 

Hi

You may be remembering this:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137881

Remember a 206S is quite different from a 206.

Best

 

Does anyone associated with RM post in FerrariChat? Are they aware what's being said about them?

If I ran a major auction house and this kind of publicity was posted about it, I'd jump in with both feet to either prove an error (two cars?) or contact the buyer, explain mistakes were made, offer a refund and then publicly disclose all that happened.

Or do these people flat out not care because their reputation isn't worth anything to them? It's sure not worth anything to me.

Ken

 

Can anyone post photos of the car in question?

Preferably some details from both periods in question.

If it's "unrestored" there should be minute similarities to prove it's the same car. Photos of the number plate would about do it.

 

I have been reading this thread, and regardless of any misleading and misstated facts about this car, isn't it unlawful to tamper with the odometer readings on a car, without clearly stating that the mileasge is different than it appears to be, most especially if it is sold claiming that the mileage is original and true?

Is the buyer aware of these facts currently? Is RM currently aware of this discrepancy, because if so, I think they would cover their butts and right the situation for fear of legal battles?

 

From what I've read, it sounds as though the odometer just rolled over at 100K, which wouldn't be tampering...

 

I like the look of wires on a Dino. Strange, I know, but it's my opinion.
Having said that I have never seen another one and I know that mine requires adapters in order to have a knock-off wheel. I can't imagine it was ever a factory option.

Regarding the assertion that Borranis are 50's and early 60's items, my 71 Daytona has Borranis, and once again in my opinion, looks fabulous.

 

After looking at the pictures of the car on the RM site I can't believe that anyone would think that the interior was original. It is clearly new and incorrect. Interesting that it was here in Toronto at Gentry Lane. I wonder what records they have of the car...even still it clearly had Cromadora rims throughout it's life and not even a mention of the "Daytona" Seats.

 

The RM auction listing is here:

http://www.rmauctions.com/AuctionResults.cfm?SaleCode=GP07#

(scroll down through the listing of cars to lot #2242)

The relevant text from the listing is:

"Believed to be one of approximately five cars originally delivered with Borrani wire wheels and less than 5,000 miles from new 1974 Ferrari 246 GTS Dino.

The 1974 Ferrari Dino GTS presented here is a superb, highly original example that, aside from a repain in the original Rosso Corsa, remains completely unrestored. The interior is all original, with black seats and red inserts, power windows, air conditioning and a Blaupunkt stereo. A very rare option, the Dino is believed to have been originally delivered with Borrani wire wheels, and including the spare in the front, retains all five. Mr. Ponder purchased the Dino for the collection over 15 years ago and has driven it only sparingly since then, maintaining its outstanding authentic and correct overall condition.

With 4,284 miles, believed to be original registered on the odometer, the Dino shows only minimal wear in both the interior and the engine bay. Remarkably preserved, overall the 246 GTS displays a quality of fit and finish that a Ferrari with less than 5,000 miles should."

From a legal perspective, insertion of the "belief" qualifiers in the listing makes a fraud claim against RM really weak as long as there is no evidence that they actually knew that the statements were false. As to Ponder himself, it would be a question of fact whether he knew about the restoration and previous history of the car.

 

But it is fraud of the same flavor. Odometer mileage statements have a box to check if the "mechanical limits of the odometer have been surpassed".

 

There are many different kinds of auctions in Florida. Real estate, automobiles, estate auctions, even furniture. Do you really think it would be worthwhile for an Fchatter to throw his name in the ring? Any guesses as to the number of Ferraris sold at auction here?

 

short of a couple of auctions i have attended and ebay, i don't know crap about auctions

 

Gentlemen - I posit that the odometer reading is exactly as stated. With 5 digits, it will have rolled to zero at 99,999 and now has 4, 284, as stated in the description, "...The car was described as having an odometer showing 4,284 miles "believed to be original..."

It is for the buyer to fill in the gaps and realize that the car has 104,284 miles.

Jim S.

 

No way a car with an extra 100k miles will pass for a 4k mile car unless extensive restoration was done. Judging from the comments here, it's pretty obvious that is the case. Either the auction house has zero expartise in Ferraris and cars in general, or they committed fraud. I suppose in court they would have to make it clear they know nothing about what their business is about: cars.

They must be agents for the Toy Store or something...

Ken

 

Not if the seller knew the mileage was incorrect. Then it's fraud.

And considering it took us all about two minutes to get the correct reading, I find it very hard to believe that the auction house, or the seller, did not.

The language is at best misleading, and at worst intentional fraud. I'd push for the latter.

DM

 

[No way a car with an extra 100k miles will pass for a 4k mile car unless extensive restoration was done. Judging from the comments here, it's pretty obvious that is the case. Either the auction house has zero expartise in Ferraris and cars in general, or they committed fraud. I suppose in court they would have to make it clear they know nothing about what their business is about: cars. ]

If a complete and correct restoration was done 10 years ago and the car was driven a little each year since then, it could acquire enough patina to pass as a low mileage original. Take a look at the photos on the RM website. It looks like the car got (at the very least) a completely new interior and a good quality respray. Elsewhere in this string, a restoration was referenced.

By the way, it is not unusual for pre-war cars to have their odometers reset to zero when they receive a full restoration. If this Dino really got a full frame-off, I'm not sure there would be much practical difference between it and a real low mileage car, although I understand that the market attaches a higher value to original cars than restored cars in comparable condition.

The legal standard for fraud is considerably higher than simply the existence of a false statement in connection with a sale. For it to be actionable, the plaintiff has to be able to prove that the seller had actual knowledge of the false statement and intended to defraud. To meet this burden, you would need sworn testimony from someone within RM that they knew about the prior history or a "scarlet letter" showing the same thing - best of luck on obtaining anything like that. Constructive knowledge (i.e., they should have known by exercising reasonable diligence such as checking that dino website) is NOT sufficient for a fraud claim. Maybe it would work for a negligence claim.

 

Ken - I believe that you misinterpreted my comment. The auction house was careful in not saying that the car had 4,284 original miles from new. They merely said that "...the odometer showed 4,284 miles, which is believed to be original..."

My comment was merely to suggest that the statement could be true, and would be true if the car had either 4,284 miles, or 104,284 miles, or 204,284 miles, etc.

Jim S.

 

Could you elaborate? Is this car a YSM/Gentry Lane car? If so I could have a dig at Gentry to see what I could find - I'd be especially curious to find out about the Borranis. I sold #08106 a few years ago for my mother which was the last new Dino sold by YSM. Heres a pic. Note the original Yonge Steeles Motors dealer sticker in driver side corner of the windshield.
Image Unavailable, Please Login