Frustrating cold hard starting/no-start issue on 456 | FerrariChat

Frustrating cold hard starting/no-start issue on 456

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by tantumaude, Jul 23, 2018.

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  1. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    Mar 3, 2016
    951
    Burlington, Canada
    Full Name:
    Mat
    Hi all, been chasing down the solution to this problem since last year. Car has 16000 kms, last major in late 2016.

    In a nutshell, the car starts fine when hot or warm (within 4 hours of being shut off).

    When cold, 80% of the time it will cause the following problems when starting:
    1st try: it will crank, fire on what seems to be a couple of cylinders only (oil pressure and battery light stay on), stumble and cough for 2-3 seconds, and die (stall).
    2nd try (immediately thereafter): no problems whatsoever, it starts and runs fine.

    The remaining 20% of the time, it stumbles and catches, settles in a high idle. However, there is no power when pressing the accelerator in the first minute or so. It's 100% fine thereafter.

    What I've done so far: Changed intake manifolds and gaskets, changed fuel filters, changed coolant temp sensor, changed fuel pump mounts with the PE ones, tried Techron, tried resetting ECU (10 min idle), changed cat ECUs.

    Variables: tried turning key from pos 1,2 and back several times before attempting to start, different grades and sources of gas, cleaned TPS, MAFs and their connectors. Tried parking car on various inclines, tried rolling it in key pos 2 before starting (to eliminate CPS issues)

    Fuel pressure is good. @tbakowsky thinks it might be DME related.


    Any insights greatly appreciated.
     
  2. henryr

    henryr Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Juan Sánchez Villa-L
    how you completely powered it off and let it sit ?
     
  3. henryr

    henryr Two Time F1 World Champ
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    and its not throwing codes?
     
  4. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Sounds to me like you need to have your injectors cleaned and resealed. When injectors are leaking, a symptom is stumbling at start from "puddles" of fuel in the cylinder leading to an overly rich mixture. First start attempt pushes out that fuel and second start attempt no problem. Mine had three injectors leaking out of 12 and cleaning and resealing with Viton seals seemed to cure it.
     
  5. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    Mar 3, 2016
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    Mat
    @henryr : no codes, and I've let it sit for up to a week at a time with battery cut off, no change.

    @tazandjan : that'll be the next step. Is there any way of testing for that?
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Mat- Cleaning the fuel injectors should be part of the normal maintenance on these machines. Especially if it has never been done and the injectors still have the OEM seals that are not fond of alcohol. The only diagnostic test I know about is the one you are doing on cold start. Cost is not that bad, around $250-300 plus labor. See my post for how it cured my problem.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/575m-rough-start-cure.482873/#post-143838668
     
  7. Konadog06

    Konadog06 Formula Junior
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    Aug 22, 2007
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    Bill
    A Second to Taz’s recommendations. As you would see by reading the thread that Taz recommends I went through this as well.
    I would do the injectors no matter and if not successful, look closely again for intake leaks even though the gaskets were replaced. Pulling injectors on a 575 is not a difficult task. Not sure on the 456.
    Good luck on the task.
    Bill
    FL
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Bill- Affirmative, and since this one is 5.2, there could be a problem with the throttle linkage not closing completely.
     
  9. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    Mar 3, 2016
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    Mat
    I've a 1995, so 2.7. Looking into rebuilders locally. Terry, did yours have the seal kit in stock, or did they complain that it was impossible to find and had to be special ordered?
     
  10. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
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    Ryan
    If you are looking for a place to send them, I used http://fuelinjectorprecision.com/. Very quick turn around time. I think I had them back the same week I sent them. Cost was $30 per injector for ultrasonic cleaning, analysis, calibration plus another $150 or so for parts (o-rings and pontile caps and filters). Total with courier return and tax was just over $600 CDN. This was a couple of years ago.
     
  11. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Mat- No problem with parts. Several of us have used them. Give them a call.

    $450 US is a bit high for cleaning injectors. Parts should be part of the deal.
     
  12. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    Agreed. Bigger problem is every company I've called uses an ANSU machine that can only do 8 at a time. Waiting to hear back from a couple of local ones.
     
  13. asgor

    asgor Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2016
    706
    Virginia, USA
    I remember reading on FChat some good reviews of Mr. Injector. You may want to add this one to your list of places to contact.
     
  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Mat- For a V12, they do two sets of 6, just like the Ferrari factory does with ignition, injection, etc.
     
  15. bergxu

    bergxu Formula 3

    Aug 16, 2005
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    Aaron
    When you say "fuel pressure is good" do you mean good while running or that it's not bleeding down?
     
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  16. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    While running.
     
  17. cls

    cls Formula 3

    Jun 12, 2007
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    Chris
    I had the same problem, it was diagnosed by Ferrari LA as bad check valves on the fuel lines.
     
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  18. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    I guess I forgot to add that I replaced both of them too.
     
  19. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    Update, since I've only just driven the car thrice this year.

    I had the injectors serviced, new o-rings too. Made no difference. It doesn't happen every time, but seems better when I leave the key in position 2 for 30seconds-1 min prior to starting. Still hunting...

    It was at the shop last autumn for a couple of weeks, where it seemed to start more easily.
     
  20. Prit Singh

    Prit Singh Karting

    May 29, 2017
    96
    London
    I have also noticed this since I changed my fuel filters. I did the the filters off for a few days due to cleaning and painting that area.
     
  21. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    What do you mean by "no power". No increase in rpm? Car doesn't move?
     
  22. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    The car bogs and stalls. No increase in rpm.

    @Prit Singh: I'll try bypassing them, see if it makes a difference.
     
  23. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
    3,673
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    Erik
    My 456M did like yours, but only in cold weather (close to freezing point). As the car was used mostly during summer time, it was not a real problem. But I never understood why it did like that.
     
  24. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    #24 tantumaude, Jun 6, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
    Update to this: I've put up with the issue for 6 years now, but I'm getting a bit fed up.
    I'm starting to think it's a fuel feed/pressure issue, I suspect the check valves (which are integral to the pumps) may have failed. Symptoms below.

    1. When filling up, my gas cap is very hard to remove, and I get an inrush of air to the tank.
    2. After a drive, there is a very, very faint smell of gas in the garage up to about an hour later. It's hardly noticeable, but it's there
    3. I tested the pressure at the fuel rails. It takes about 10 seconds on cold start to build up to 45psi, by which point the idle stabilises. It bleeds down to 25psi after 2.5 hours, and 0 psi overnight.

    I had the injectors cleaned and rebuilt in 2018, and there were no leaks found prior to the service. Both fuel pump mount rings replaced with PTFE ones in 2018 as well.
    Driveability once the car has started is absolutely flawless, plenty of power, no misses, no CELs, etc. Hot starts are also great.


    I'd be very appreciative of anyone that could do a bleeddown test at their fuel rails, and ideally post a video of pressure readings on cold start!
     
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  25. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #25 Qavion, Jun 6, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
    If a vacuum is forming in the tank, then might that cause the pump check valve/s to open and fuel to bleed back into the tank? Could it be an evap system problem? e.g. two way breather valve jamming?

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    There are other check valves in the system, at least on USA/Canada cars. I'm not sure of the orientation of the check valves "32" in the system and how they help maintain a correct air pressure in the tank.


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    It looks like some of the part numbers are are shared with the F355. From memory, these parts are hard to find or NLA, so be careful when handling them.
     

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