Fuel injector problem on Mondial t?

Mondial T problems are almost always electrical (per personal experience with my car). A few thoughts:

1. Was perchance your battery dead (or cut off) before you started
your trip?
If so, did you let the car idle for 15mins, untouched, before starting out?

2. There is a round electrical connected on the left frame rail in the engine
compartment. Since the weight of the harness pulls on this, it sometimes
can loosen. Best to unscrew, clean, and reseat it.

3. Check electrical connections at MAS, throttle position senses, and cam
position sensor. It is often useful to clean and reseat them.

4. Is your alternator the updated Nippondenso unit or the earlier Delco unit?

5. Check that all fuses and relays are properly seated. Look for burn
marks (browning of the white plastic) around the harness connectors
to the fusebox. Usually these affect A/C, starter, and dash lights, so
it might not be applicable in your case though it is a known trouble spot.

If all else fails, cutting off the battery and then repeating the 15 min re-learn
process can cure some ills. This would be particularly true if your problem
occurred just as the engine was reaching full temp (roughly 7-12 mins into the trip).


Lou

 

Hi,
di One bank cut out and cause the entire engine to stumble and quit or did all 8 cyl. die at once....check the MAF ( do a search here) on the troubled bank 348 engine will be real crap with a bad MAF, ( I cursed Ferrari for years on this until I recently sought refuge with a Prosche , BMW . Merc mechanic and he assured me the Merc's have Bosch MAF problems all the time and it was no big deal since the part is so easy to R/R and diagnose etc.. (yeah but we are getting it done at Ferrari labor prices!)...if a car sits it has to be driven , clean and check every electrical connector in sight. I had two bad FI and the mechanic wanted to replace them all ( he said they needed to be all a matched set tested to have the same properties to run right. I just uesd some FI cleaner and ran the car for a weekend and all was well again.

 

Rick, Hang in there buddy, you need a tough skin and patience to put up with these 348 electics....re: MAF... the are plenty of threads here detailing how to test the MAF with a multi-meter...BUT since it is actually the easiest part on the car to R/R I went to Directauto.com and had my MAF rebuilt for about 200....rockauto.com has new ones for 350 dealer is like 700. I sent mine MAF from the offending bank in, they rebuilt it and I got it back within 2 days...and while it was being rebuilt, I pulled every electrical connection I could see or find in the engine bay and cleaned it and replaced it very securely. that was done about 300 miles ago and so far so good (cross my fingers) will it last NO, these are cars that are over 10 years+ old remember.

 

I had a one bank cut out problem on my 3.4 (Motronic 2.7) Mondial t too.

In my case it was by 99% the cat-converters temperature protection circuits which cuts the injection on the ECU pin usually used for anti theft devices.

I simply disconnected them and had no more engine trouble.

They are located left and right under the rear trunk cover.
There are 6 pin connectors on each side to black boxes which cut out the corresponding cylinder bank on 980° C. No need to take the temperature probe out of the converter like I did.

If you want to leave the slow down light working, it should be the white wire (from connector to black box) "D" which connects to pin 52 of the ECU. It supplies 12V to the ECU and stops the engine. So basically one could leave the boxes working as warning lights, but disable there influence on the engine management. I spent a lot of time exploring these little gremlins which are no Bosch items, but made by a unfriendly Italian company which is to arrogant to answer e-mails.

If mine had this problem, the slow down light did not flash.

It really drove me mad over 2 years, as the car was absolutely unreliable. It spent month at a official Ferrari dealer, who did not have any idea and as he said, never experienced the problem at any other car.
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Yeah this sounds like the classic exhaust ecu problem.

Before you unplug the ecu's, try swapping them from one side to the other. See if the bank on the other side shuts off. If it does then you know which ecu is bad.

Now if after you swap the ecu's you still get the problem on the same side, the you will want to swap the thermocouplers. Those are the things sticking out of the catalytic converters. Those also have a tendancy to go bad.

As suggested do make sure that the MAFS are clean and connected properly. You may also want to pull the codes out of the ECU to see ecactly what was the cause of the problem. It will let you know if it was a MAFS problem, or if the was with the cats.

 

Tom, great info.... i like your fix...so I simply disconnect the plug you show in the bottom of your pic (are there two , one for each side?) and then there is no effect on the ecu other than I might run a hot cat and not know about it ( unless I do the white wire connection only)....

 

other peopel have cars simply as transportation from point a to point b...we have ferraris they are different they are cars that we use and we wonder if we will get from point a to point b!

I was a big jaguar collector before switching to ferraris....jags were just to damn reliable for me....no adventure in that!

 

Hi NYCFERRARIS!

There are always some that want to keep us blind.

I don’t recommend to just disconnect the cat temperature sensing ECU, but explain what happens and how it effects your car.
Sorry, I don’t care how it effects your business.

If you have a problem with these electronic boxes, you may be happy to disconnect them for a try. If you know what it is, or what it isn’t, that sure helps.

Next point is, many have already fitted test tubes. Just for a test, sure. So there is no cat to be protected. Nevertheless the black box cuts out the engine for no reason, if this notorious unreliable $ 590 per side, three stage temperature switch worth $ 5 in parts plays up.

Last point, the cats are the cheapest units on the continent. They are exactly the same basic units that where fitted to 75 HP Fiat UNO´s, a car that would pass as a lawn mower in the US.
I don’t know how long they are up to the task. Mine where blown to pieces after a top speed event.

My next step is to fit some high flow metal cats and leave the temperature probe connected, but to disable the engine shut down dictator. I will use my brain in the future and follow the blinking light if it says “slow down”.

Some other Ferrari owners can read too.

 

Sounds like I will try and follow your lead. I will try and keep the warning light going and disconenct the ECU cut off control...that seems the most logical, I agree with these cats being not up to the task!

 

Your comment made me laugh! Before we had the Ferrari we had no need for AAA but owning a Ferrari almost mandates membership in AAA (plus RV for that, if necessary, free 200 mile tow + there's a bunch of other neat discounts available thru their services). Actually, Sophia is a wonderful lady in red who provides much pleasure and she's one Mondial t Coupe that's NOT for sale!

Carol

 

I have had AAA Plus service since I first started this crazy car collecting nonesense...you get flatbed service and the free 200 mi...BUT you also get "extraction service...this is key in NYC when a flatbed can't fit down i the underground parking when your F-car won't start...so they send a wheel lift AND a flat bed -- it is really something to see TWO tow trucks working on a single f-car...it can be a real showstopper for the pedestrians even in jaded busy NYC!... I used to have a few jaguars that I used and I remember breaking down in the hamptons in my e-type roadster and the tow guy asked me Did you drive this all the way out from NYC? when I said I did he looked and me and said..Boy you are brave!
I would love a mondial T coupe...that is how much a masochist I am...TWO mondials would be twice the pain... I really never liked the car as I was F-car collecting but I thought , hey they are a 4-seater, full convertible ( which I love) and they were giving them away cheap....now this quirky car has really gotten under my skin and many years later I am smitten! Plus as "modern" f-cars go they are pretty rare sight..see many more 308's!

 

I might add that the need for AAA was NOT Sophias fault. Rather, it was the idiot behind the wheel (me) that misjudged the height of a speed bump and managed to put a ding in the fuel tank that resulted in the petrol depositing itself on the ground. The tank was removed and the leak welded and all now is well. The only real damage was to my wallet - and well deserved.

When we first started looking, Mondials were not on the list. They don't seem, to me, to look as good in photographs as in person. By the time we were ready to make a decision, Sophia was the only choice.

Ciao,

John

 

The last f-car I wanted was a mondial and before I had one I was an ardent mondial basher... my freind had a mondial T and HATED it, cursed it worse car he ever had, money pit, can't put the top down, can't put the top up..etc He then got a 355 and loved it and is now a 430 guy!.

Anyway, how did you puncture the gas tank? Isn't there a belly skid plate under there, I scrape a lot and worry ...the engine sits so low , but never thought about the fuel tank...yikes!
BTW do you know the size of the door speakers inteh mondial T..thinking of upgradidng the OEM sound system...also best way to remove dor panels...what do you use to condition your seats? any assecories you find particularly useful?

 

I'll try to explain what happened as best I can.

The tank is protected in all directions except from directly underneath. Some steel straps run from front to rear under the tank to hold it in the frame. The car does have a belly pan but it is light weight metal and really doesn't protect the bottom of the car from anything more than small stuff on the road.

The tank was hit from the bottom. This forced an indentation in the bottom thus slightly moving the rear vertical wall of the tank. The tank has 3 internal baffels that are spot welded to the walls of the tank internally. When the rear wall of the tank flexed, one of the top spot welds for the baffels broke away from the rear wall leaving a hole in the rear vertical wall of the tank. Any fuel in the tank above the break thus leaked out. The solution was to reweld the damage. Then a patch was welded to the outside of the tank over the spot weld area. That way, if the same thing happens again and the spot weld breaks free, there will be another layer of metal on the outside of the tank wall to maintain the integrity of the tank.

In addition to the tank, the impact crushed one of the fuel lines that runs from the fuel pick-ups in the tanks bottom.

The repair shop sent me some pictures of the repair that I would be happy to send you that may explain this a bit better. If you'll send me your e-mail address (either by post or pm) I'll send them along.

Don't know about the speakers or the door panels. We have been using Meguires (sp??) leather products on the seats with good results so far. No accessories on the car to date.

I don't fault the car at all. I was new to it and really hadn't developed an appreciation to just how low it really is. I was taking it over to my wifes office to show it off a bit after delivery and just wasn't careful enough when crossing a speed bump in the parking lot. I still consider the Mondial t the perfect Ferrari for us.

The technician that did the repair told me he sees evidence of a lot of "close encounters" with the ground on cars he services. He told one particularly sad tale of a 348 that ran over a higher than expected expansion joint in the pavement between a road and a bridge. The resulting impact did a substantial amount of damage, including breaking some transmission bolts, and resulted in a 5 figure repair bill.

Caution is definitely the name of the game. There is a lot of expensive aluminum down there in close proximity to the ground.

Let me know if you would like me to send the pictures. Hopefull my experience will save someone else from having a similar one.

Ciao,

John

 

On the question of door speakers,
the door speakers in my '90 Mondial T Cab were 6.5inch Infinity Kappa 6.1s. These were 6.5inch woofers and they fit in the OEM opening. The top-mount depth for those speakers is 2 5/8 inches, and they fit invisibly behind the door leather. The trick to removing the panels is that the 2inch strip just above the armrest slides back (there is a small screw at the edge of the door that must be removed before you can slide it). Once you've removed that piece, the screws holding the next section of panel are exposed (upper part, if I remember correctly). Once you've removed that, you'll expose the final screws for removing the lower panel where the speaker mounts.


Lou

 

Lou...the info onth door removal is EXACTLY what I needed to keep from breaking expensive bits inthe door panels...any idea if there is a cheap source for the mondial window switches?

I would love the pics of the fuel tank repair ...leaking fuel and a ferrari are a scary combination...you can pm me and I will send email addy...the car is SO LOW, it is incredible...so much lower than any other of my F-car and lower than anything I've seen on the road...you can barely slide a clenched fist under the rocker panels (which protrude lower than the actual rest of car) which a little helpful since the rockers will scrape on a speed bump and give you a warning that you are in trouble. protruding manole covers are a nightmare...I think enzo made teh F-car handle so well because of the need to make lightning quick highspeed evasive maneouvers to avoid manhole covers and pot holes that come up quick and threaten to cause 5 figure damage on your car!

 

I can't use a service station near home because the fill points for the underground tanks are a bit high and located right next to the pumps. As has been mentioned by a poster on another thread, you not only need to watch out for other traffic, you must also look out for the road.
You have pm with my work e-mail address. When I get your e-mail address I'll forward the pictures.
Ciao,
John

 

I look out how the cars in front on my interact withthe road ( In NYC area there is ALWAYS a car in front of you!) if they bounce up or undulate, from a road imperfection I have to make some big , quick decisions...do I brake to slow down for the inevitable impact with the bump? (but that would cause dip the nose and make the hit worse) Do I speed up and take the hit real quick, like an airliner going through turbulance (only kidding) do I swerve (most likely) but in what direction?

Drivingthe mondial barely a few inches off the pavement is a full on total sensory experience...wouldn't have it any other way...it is amazing to see the other "low profile" sports cars vettes, porsche etc. and you can actully see under the car clear across to daylight on the other side...can't do that with a mondail even on your hands and knees!

 

To your question on window switches, I have never found any source for cheaper, nor better, replacement switches. The replacements from Ferrari don't last long and are pricey. The size is non-standard in the US, so I've had no luck with the several places that I emailed for help. I even took one with me to a car shop in Paris while on a business trip, hoping that it would be a standard Euro size, but they didn't want to talk to me after I mentioned 'ferrari'. So, I was left with just replacing with the Ferrari factory part as needed.

BTW, on the momentary switches such as the trunk release be sure that it doesn't stick in the ON position when you let go. I had one do this and had smoke coming from my trunk 10mins later. Turns out that the protection for the release solenoid does not account for stuck switches so the darned thing melted and smoldered.

 

For what it's worth, one of the folks at the shop that maintains our car mentioned that, on occasion, he has had some luck finding electrical switches for older Ferraris, at more reasonable prices, through BMW parts sources. We weren't talking about Mondials specifically so don't know if this will be helpful. Good luck.
John