Fuel Pump Options: 1990 Testarossa | FerrariChat

Fuel Pump Options: 1990 Testarossa

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by deuce49, Feb 27, 2023.

  1. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
    Needing to replace the fuel pumps in my 1990 Testarossa (US car), and I'm having a hard time finding what people are using or options available today. It seems the original units have been NLA anywhere for a while, and hard to see what Ferrari part companies are even using to succeed the old Bosh part numbers:

    Ferrari: 121727
    Bosch: 0 580 254 947
    Bosch US: 61947


    I've been having some cold start issues since I bought the car. It takes about (3) key turns before the car starts. Once it starts, it takes a few short seconds to fully come alive to 1K RPM idle.

    Now, what has changed recently... When I put the car in 1st and start to drive away, it wants to surge quite a bit, so some driving manipulation is required to push in the clutch a bit to stop the bucking, and once I can give more gas to go above 2K rpm's it smooths out. Once the car is warm/hot it's like butter and operates great as should be expected.

    Just recently I started getting the whine/buzzing coming from the fuel pump area. Got the car up on the lift and unfortunately, no whining when I started it this time, has come and gone a few times in the past actually. I crawled underneath and touched both to see if they were running, used a stethoscope on them and sound similar in operational tone, checked the voltage on both and they are getting 12V at the terminals. Checked the fuses and relays, all are good (Have Helms updated fuse box). Dropped car and drove a few more weeks no fuel pump whine, now its back and hasn't left for the past 3 drives, so I Pulled one fuse and the car would barely stay alive (no buzzing/whinning on that pump), flip-flopped and pulled the other fuse and I hear whining, but the car stays alive no problem on those 6 cylinders o_O

    Regarding the cold start... I imagine that is either the fuel pump check valves that are bad or the fuel accumulators not holding line pressure. The fuel accumulators have shown slight signs of leaking out of the screw on the back but nothing major. I decided to replace the fuel accumulators and the fuel filters over the weekend. Seems to run slightly better on startup, still requires 2-3 turns of the key if left overnight. It's obvious that the fuel pump check valves need replacing as it doesn't hold pressure overnight for a 1-key turn startup and most likely I just need to throw fresh fuel pumps in.
     
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  3. lagunacc

    lagunacc Formula 3
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    https://www.ebay.com/itm/154610703042
     
  4. lagunacc

    lagunacc Formula 3
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  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    only turn the ignition key to "ignition on" or to "start"?
     
  6. EDoug

    EDoug Karting

    Apr 19, 2005
    150
    Southern Florida
    You might also want to look at the back of each of your fuel pressure regulators for any sign of leakage. The little one-inch rubber tell-tale is open to atmosphere and indicates diaphragm integrity. EDoug
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    31,382
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Biggest cause of loss of residual fuel pressure is injection nozzles.
    Of all your symptoms the only one that sounds like a pump issue is the noise.
    You may indeed need a pump but I doubt it is causing all your driveability issues.
     
  8. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
    Hi Joe, not sure what you mean by this? fuel pumps don’t activate unless key is turned all the way to start position. They do not prime in ignition or accessory position.
     
  9. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
    Thank you, I have actually already replaced the fuel regulators last year.
     
  10. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
    Interesting, so you think it’s dripping fuel into the cylinders? Shockingly enough I don’t have a notable amount of fuel dilution in my oil reports. I was going to order the updated brass injectors anyways, but was hoping to tackle that in the next year or so.
     
  11. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
  12. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,357
    southwest germany and thailand
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    romano schwabel
    as I remember the fuel pumps always are running for a very few seconds when you turn the ignition to "ON". then they stopp. and when you turn the key to start they run again. that is why I ask what you mean with 2 or 3 times turn the key
     
  13. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
    Ok, to be honest ever since I bought the car about a year and a half ago. It has never clicked or actuated the pumps ever in accessory mode, not even for a millisecond. Only ever actuates the pumps on full start position.
     
  14. lagunacc

    lagunacc Formula 3
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    Your part numbers.
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    24,017
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    #14 Steve Magnusson, Feb 28, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
    It's not meant to (and doesn't) hold fuel pressure overnight. Certainly do confirm/deny if your fuel pumps are working correctly, or not, when you have the cold start trouble. Although if your warm restart is always good, and "I've been having some cold start issues since I bought the car" is the situation, it's also possible that someone wrongly tweaked the car up (when warm) with a not functioning Protection Relay system. The Protection Relay system is what powers the injection ECUs, and, during cold start-up, the injection ECUs add enrichment via the EHAs. Without this extra enrichment, cold start-up and cold-running will be poor (even though warm start-up and warm-running seems OK). To check if the Protection Relay system is working, or not, see this post for how to measure for +12V at the "red wire":

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147647146

    There are other systems (thermo-time switch and cold start injectors) that also add enrichment during cold-start up so those would be the next thing to check for bad cold start-up (if the fuel pumps are OK and the Protection Relay system is working).

    That smaller diameter Bosch fuel pump 0580464125 (Bosch USA 69435) that requires that black plastic zig-zag adapter to fit in the stock larger mounting bracket is the one that most F part vendors now supply. It's a slightly less capable CIS fuel pump so a few of the population might have problems if at maximum engine RPM, but most will work OK. If you get these fuel pumps you can do the "fuel pump delivery test of 1000cc minimum in 30 seconds" returning to the tank from the pressure regulator to the tank when the fuel pump is running and the engine is not running to see if you have this margin or less. Page D38 in the TR WSM shows how to do this test on a euro K-Jet TR, but your KE-Jet TR is a plumbed a bit differently -- just find the large metal line from the pressure regulator that connects to the rubber hose going back to the tank -- discharge from that line is where to check for the 1000cc minimum in 30 seconds (easiest to connect a longer rubber hose to the metal line to run to the container rather than disconnect the rubber hose from the tank).

    PS You can get that Bosch CIS fuel pump for far less on Amazon:

    https://www.amazon.com/Electric-FERRARI-MERCEDES-1-6-5-0L-1971-2000/dp/B00BHKIXE2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3AH9X98LJADZC&keywords=0580464125&qid=1677601273&sprefix=0580464125,aps,454&sr=8-1

    or RockAuto:

    https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/bosch,69435,fuel+pump,6256
     
  16. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
    Ok, I will check the protection relay system once I get home from work this evening. I have never checked this component before. Yes once warm, hot or driven the restart is always perfect.

    What are your thoughts on these pumps? I have seen the cross-reference on a few sites and thought this may be a better replacement option? I am a little reluctant to grab pumps that may run lean at top of the RPM range as I do drive my cars as intended. Thank you so much for your time and insight!

    Part Number: W0133-1755100
    https://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1990/ferrari/testarossa/fuel_delivery/fuel_pump.html

    Part Number: 69466 (has cross reference of 0580254967
    https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/12366265-69466?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=feed_Porsche&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6fafBhC1ARIsAIJjL8khyJaE2m0DQSM41IRkzKnVnVmBDrEefOgOlPoL3OUxA1_mBezYFpYaAjKiEALw_wcB

    Quantum HFP-602: never heard of this brand
    https://www.highflowfuel.com/quantum-inline-oem-replacement-fuel-pump-for-ferrari-testarossa-2-0l-3-0l-1987-1991/
     
  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    24,017
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    That's a pretty strong sign IMO that your fuel pumps are OK as heat is usually the enemy of an electric motor.

    I do prefer having the larger 60mm diameter body CIS fuel pump vs the 52mm diameter body CIS fuel pump IF the prices are about the same. I will say that Ferrari designed a lot of margin in their CIS fuel pump selection for the typical pump from the "new" population (but this also ensures that even the worst performers of the "new" population will work OK). The fuel pump doesn't know if the fuel is going into the engine or going back to the tank. The "calculation" is that each bank of the TR engine would use about 500~600~700cc of fuel in 30 seconds at max RPM so they (very conservatively) set the minimum spec at 1000cc in 30 seconds (but always having some recirculation is a good thing, too). I don't have my TR records to check any more, but, IIRC, whenever I ran this test, my result was more like 1500cc in 30 seconds -- so there was huge margin. As longs as whatever you use meets the 1000cc in 30 seconds return delivery spec (fuel pump "on", engine "off") = all OK IMO.

    Part Number: W0133-1755100 = That's a Mercedes-Benz part number and looks OK, except for the price ;). One other small nit might be the diameter of the inlet nipple. These come in different sizes like 12mm, 14mm, or 15mm diameter. Clamping the Ferrari 15mm fuel supply hose onto a 14mm inlet nipple sort works OK, but it's not great. You might check with the supplier the diameter of the inlet nipple.

    Part Number: 69466 (has cross reference of 0580254967) = This Porsche CIS pump looks like it might have a 12mm diameter inlet nipple so that would be out (and you should check that point with the supplier).

    Quantum HFP-602: never heard of this brand = Me neither, but looks like a good value to me. The Bosch CIS pumps are now made in the same sort of third-world factories where this Quantum pump is made so not so different.

    Even the 52mm pump you found before would probably work OK (and others have reported using them successfully).

    All JMO ;)
     
  18. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
    Thank you, going to call a few of these vendors and get specifics on the inlet sizing unless anyone else has any suggestions or success installing fuel pumps recently in your Testarossa's?
     
  19. lagunacc

    lagunacc Formula 3
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    I had posted these in the cross reference thread a while back.

    Fuel pump - MAGNETI MARELLI 313011300019 - about 35 euros

    • OEN 893 906 091 B — AUDI
    • OEN 69435 — BOSCH
    • OEN EKP-3-D — BOSCH
    • OEN 119291 — FERRARI
    • OEN 121727 — FERRARI
    • OEN 53719568 — FIAT
    • OEN 1613157 — FORD
    • OEN 6106539 — FORD
    • OEN 6150295 — FORD
    • OEN 82GB 9350 AA — FORD
    • OEN 83BB 9350 AA — FORD
    • OEN 84BB 9350 AA — FORD
    • OEN 002 091 59 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN 002 091 88 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN 002 091 97 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN 003 091 53 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN 116 090 00 50 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN 116 091 03 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN A 002 091 59 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN A 002 091 88 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN A 002 091 97 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN A 003 091 53 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN A 116 090 00 50 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN A 116 091 03 01 — MERCEDES-BENZ
    • OEN 721 1 49 099 2/1 — PUCH
    • OEN 893 906 091 B — VW
    • OEN 893 906 091 E — VW
    • OEN 8G0 906 091 A — VW
     
  20. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
    Called all vendors, and nobody has any details on inlet size, body diameter, or flow rate! SMH

    The quantum did have an inlet at 15mm and a body at 60mm, but they have no clue of the flow rate and "that it's as good as "OE or Better" it's proprietary, and even I don't have access to that" I don't feel very confident with that answer....

    After spending an entire day online and the phone for fuel pumps, I did come discover this guy that I've never heard anyone mention, and it says it's the upgraded part for Testarossa 121727:

    Bosch Part# 0 580 464 205

    https://www.bosch-motorsport-shop.com.au/200l-h-5bar-in-line-fuel-pump~104800

    &

    https://www.boschaftermarket.com/gb/en/parts/-/Details_of_Electric_fuel_pump_for_vehicle_Ferrari_Testarossa_1986_-_1991_287kW_F_113_B/pi/categories/*/products/0580464205/vi/vehicle/SR4MMG/
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    24,017
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #20 Steve Magnusson, Feb 28, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
    Bit of a fib IMO to say that that pump has a 60mm body when it's using the zig-zag spacer to be 60mm, or to call it "upgraded". Don't like the high current (11.6A @ 5 bar); whereas, the stock 60mm body pump is more like 10A @ 5 bar. Also having another threaded connection (that can leak) for the inlet fitting isn't a plus -- nor is the price ;). I'm sure that it would quasi-work, but I wouldn't pay a premium for it.

    Here's some data for the earlier 52mm pump (Bosch 0580464125, Bosch USA 69435) that I saved:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    that shows at 5 bar (500 KPa) the current would be 8A and the flow rate would be 135 +/- 15 liter/hour (the 1000 cc in 30 sec spec = 120 liter/hour). If going the 52mm route I'd rather use this one (and confirm the flow rate meets spec) rather than that high current ...205 pump -- JMO (but I'd still try the Quantum pump ;)).

    For reference, here's the same data for the stock pump Bosch 0580254947 (Bosch USA 69532) Image Unavailable, Please Login :
     
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  22. lagunacc

    lagunacc Formula 3
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  23. deuce49

    deuce49 Karting

    Sep 25, 2011
    74
    Scottsdale
    Full Name:
    BC
    Well, it was pretty damn tough trying to get to the "red wire," but I was barely able to get my voltmeter probe back there between the plug and the sensor lead with the car on and got 14V. So maybe I need to move on to the "thermo-time switch & cold start injectors"?
     
  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    24,017
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #24 Steve Magnusson, Feb 28, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
    Almost disappointed as that would've be easy to investigate and fix ;). You could just not be tweaked up very well as good cold-running is dependent on the mixtures being set correctly, but warm-running can get "corrected" some by the Lambda system. To do the functional test of the thermo-time switch, just unplug one of the cold start injectors and either connect a 12V test light between the two wires in the harness connector or connect a voltmeter between those two terminals. If it is getting down below about 68 deg F or less at night, during your first cranking event in the morning, the test light should illuminate for a second, or two, while the starter motor is cranking (or the voltmeter should read maybe 10V for a second, or two, while the starter motor is cranking).
    However, the cold start injector operation is really just to get the engine to fire up, if you're running poorly for like a minute after it cold starts (even if with difficulty) = sort of a sign the general mixture tweak-up might not be so right.

    Since I see that you are in Scottsdale, you may not be getting cold enough overnight to have the thermo-time switch close (if so, it won't squirt the cold start injectors at the first cold start-up). For me in TX, my ex-TR started much more crisply in the morning from Nov to March, and need longer cranking at first cold start-up to light off from April to Oct (and would labor a little at a lower cold idle RPM to get going -- because the AAVs aren't open much either).
     

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