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Fuel pumps end of live?

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by PetMar, Feb 2, 2020.

  1. PetMar

    PetMar Rookie

    Aug 31, 2018
    38
    Izegem, Belgium, Europe
    Full Name:
    Marrannes Peter
    Dear all,

    When servicing my 412, my mechanic saw shiny metal particles in the fuel filters. He suspects that the particles come from the fuel pumps and that both are best replaced.

    The car was built in 1985 and has 37000 miles on the clock and running fine.

    Do I have to worry? Who also found such pieces in his filters and what was being done?

    Thank you in advance for your responses.

    Peter
     
  2. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    322
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    #2 raemin, Feb 2, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
    I would not try to fix a fine running ferrari...

    If the pumps do not draw an outrageous amounts of amps, and pressure is correct, I would keep the original ones. From time to time A 20 year old "New Old Stock" pump may bring a few issues of its own...

    As a side note, I presume the 412 is a bit different than the earlier models, so I am not sure it has the same arrangement as in the older models. On my car there are quite a few hoses, creative plumbing, undocumented vapor filter, and gas pre-filter that could leave debris into the pumps. I would check these first.
     
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  3. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    5,360
    Full Name:
    Michael
    #3 wrxmike, Feb 2, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
    The 412 fuel filters are metal cans, to see inside you need to cut them open with a saw, and that's where the silver particles come from...


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    Most fuel pumps use plastic turbine wheels, ( so there is no chance of metal / metal contact which can cause a spark -"boom" ). Plastic turbine wheels don't generate metal particles , see this video which shows what's inside an electric fuel pump. Some pumps do use a metal gerotor assembly, to get significant metal to metal contact the bearings would have failed, which means the pump would not produce sufficient pressure for the engine to run properly (you said it was running fine )


    I'd be looking for another mechanic.....
    M
     
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  4. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    71,624
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Normally the failure mode of our pumps is increased ampacity, so if your fuses and wiring do not show hot spots, the pumps are working.

    I suppose they would make metal with wear, but surely not much??
     
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  5. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    4,736
    North Pole AK
    Sometimes the pumps get noisy before they fail. I've replaced three pumps, none of them Ferrari but I'd guess they are similar. On one car the pump was very noisy and it partially failed. The the other two times the engine wouldn't start. In one of those instances I had the vehicle towed to the house and changed it. The other time the vehicle was in the garage so at least it didn't need to be towed but I had just filled it up the day prior so I had to lower the tank when it was full.
     
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  6. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

    Jul 30, 2007
    1,983
    Barrington, Ill. USA
    Full Name:
    Ross
    Ours, K jetronic, use a positive displacement roller cell pump so yes plenty of opportunity for debris. Ostensibly anyone cutting open the filter (wouldn't use a saw)knows to distinguish any cutting chips from other debris.
    If pressure and draw are within limits you are probably fine. Given the fragile nature of our electrical systems you may want to replace them if at all suspect.
    Bosch 69523 is the correct, direct fit, proper spec(165 lt./hr. @ 5 bar) pump. It is available from Signore Bezos for around $130/ea.
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    18,744
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Let me add a small correction to Ross' post. Bosch 69523 (with the non-replaceable check valve) is the stock replacement fuel pump for a 400i, but not for a 412. The 412 uses the style more similar to Bosch 69532 with the replaceable check valve, BUT it is mounted inside the tank so my guess is that it doesn't have an inlet nipple for a hose. Maybe you could take a Bosch 69532 and just cut the inlet nipple off and it might work in a 412 -- but I don't know that for sure. What is sure is that the 412 fuel pump with a replaceable check valve has a different F part number (129343) than the other F models that use the Bosch 69532 with the replaceable check valve (F Part number 121727).. Here's the 412 SPC page showing how the 412 fuel pumps are mounted inside the tanks, but, if someone has a picture of a stock 412 fuel pump, please post it:

    https://www.ricambiamerica.com/car-diagrams/ferrari/v12/gt-group-2-2/412/fuel-tanks-pumps-lines.html

    PS Some 400i have probably been updated to use the later Bosch 69532 fuel pump (as the Bosch 69523 was not available for a few years) so best to check what you have before buying: if you have the non-replaceable check valve style = buy Bosch 69523; if you have the replaceable check valve style = buy Bosch 69532.
     
  8. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

    Jul 30, 2007
    1,983
    Barrington, Ill. USA
    Full Name:
    Ross
    Thanks for that Steve, I'm unable to edit my post to reflect that information. FWIW mine(400i) do have a check ball in the removable fitting which accepts the banjo.
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,871
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    #9 Rifledriver, Feb 4, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
    Bosch still makes those pumps so the chance of a 20 year old NOS pump is nearly zero. K Jetronic systems hate small metallic debris and it can do a lot of damage to previously good fuel injection components, some of which are NLA so finding the source of debris and fixing accordingly is a high priority. In fact K Jet is the most debris sensitive fuel delivery system I have ever experienced.

    Like Ross said, cutting a fuel filter open with a saw to inspect for debris is unlikely not only for the obvious reason but it is also the hard way.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,871
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Thousands, hundreds of thousands of cars are on the road with either submersed or flow through fuel pumps. Electric motors make sparks and yet the roadside is not littered with burned out hulks from electric fuel pumps igniting the fuel. It has nothing to do with the material used to move the fuel. Fire requires 3 elements and one is missing.
     
  11. raemin

    raemin Formula Junior

    Jan 16, 2007
    322
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Back to the subject:, if I were in PeterMar shoes, I would just ask for the tank to be thoroughly cleaned, new hoses (including the one directly connected to the pump), new filter, drive the car for a couple hundred miles, open again one filter and see how it looks.

    if he is afraid of running the car, then it's possible to disconnect the banjo connector in the engine bay, route the loose hose to a separate container and let the pump suck a full tank of fuel to see how it looks? That would be the best way to check that no debris are reaching the kjet.

    Maybe the the type of debris should be analysed with a magnet: aluminium could be from the tanks, while ferric could be either from the filter or the pump.
     
  12. PetMar

    PetMar Rookie

    Aug 31, 2018
    38
    Izegem, Belgium, Europe
    Full Name:
    Marrannes Peter

    Cleaning the tank is the first thing that will happen now, or maybe already has happened. I asked my mechanic if the pumps were noisy. Because those are in the tank, sound is muffled anyway, the answer was. And, no, I am not at all afraid to get on the road with it. Never, until now, have I experienced any hesitation under constant load, constant speed. Accelerating is also no problem. Thanks for replying, to all. Peter
     

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