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Fuel question/opinion

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by decardona, May 17, 2019.

  1. decardona

    decardona Formula Junior

    Apr 23, 2005
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    Dennis Cardona
    A local station now sells ethanol free fuel. Only problem is it's only regular grade, 87 octane. Will this be a better fuel than a higher octane ethanol added fuel?
     
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  2. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Ethanol free fuel is the better fuel, ie. more energy density and less damaging to metal and rubber fuel related systems. Octane is not a mark of the quality of the fuel, it is a technical term and relates to preventing detonation in an engine. Some engines need higher octane or they will knock and ping under load. That is not good for the engine. Pure ethanol is more than 100 octane, so it raises octane when blended with regular gas. But if your engine can run without detonating on a lower octane fuel, then that is actually the best fuel. Higher octane means better resistance to detonation, but the other side of the coin is that the car might be a bit harder to start, ie. the fuel does not combust quite as readily as a low octane fuel.

    So the answer is, the best gas is pure gas at the lowest octane that your car runs properly on. You could try the 87 octane and see if you hear any signs of detonation. (A turbo car would typically need the higher octane). If not you are good to go.

    Shell premium in Canada is the only reliable no ethanol fuel available, in premium only. Not sure if the Shell blends in the US are the same.
     
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  3. decardona

    decardona Formula Junior

    Apr 23, 2005
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    Thanks for the info. I'll try it and see how well it goes. Hopefully it will not cause any knocking in the motor.
     
  4. spicedriver

    spicedriver Formula 3

    Feb 1, 2011
    1,607
    I've found that Shell V Power fuel works best. This fuel is reportedly very similar to what the Ferrari F1 team uses. Also, we've had 10% Ethanol since 2006, and it hasn't caused any problems in our cars. Any fuel will varnish up over time, even with added stabilizers. So it's important to keep track of how old your fuel is for cars that you don't drive every day.
     
  5. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
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    Apr 25, 2010
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    I run my 3.2 on 89 or 90 octane ethanol free fuel, I filled her up with Shell 93 octane ethanol a few weeks ago and she didn't like it very much. Starting was a bit rough. Full tank of 90 ethanol free and she is running like a scalded ape again. YMMV
    Alden
     
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  6. Wade

    Wade Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Hi Dennis,

    I always used ethanol-free gas and along with octane booster since, locally, it was rated at 90.

    Btw, there could be occasions where the "knock" is undetectable, which is why newer cars have a anti-knock sensor as part of the engine management system.

    Inside a Car - Knock Sensors - AZO Sensors

    Also, if you're concerned about the effects of ethanol on the car's fuel system let me know if you're interested in this:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/sri-fuel-hose-kit-for-mondial.600421/

    Discounts available to current owners of [my] previously owned Ferraris. ;)
     
  7. Wade

    Wade Two Time F1 World Champ
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  8. decardona

    decardona Formula Junior

    Apr 23, 2005
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    Dennis Cardona
    Thanks Wade. I always appreciate a discount. I'm going to try the fuel with an added octane booster. Next time I have the car on the lift I'll inspect the fuel hoses. If they look problematic, and they are still available, I will gladly take them off your hands. It's been 4 years since you were kind enough to sell me your car. Time really does fly.
     
  9. Wade

    Wade Two Time F1 World Champ
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    It does... but at the same time it seems like so long ago.
     
  10. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
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    Apr 25, 2010
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    I could be wrong, but I thought our cars only required 87-89 (USA calculated) octane fuel.
    Alden
     
  11. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    My owners manual for a Swiss market 1988 Mondial 3.2 identifies the following fuel specification:

    98÷100 N.O.
    According to B.S.I. fuel standards
    With 4 or 5 Stars

    Can anyone decipher how this would match modern Euro/UK and US fuel terms?
     
  12. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie
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  13. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    That's helpful.

    The Shell V Power Nitro in Canada on the web site is rated as 99 RON, so that seems on spec, but it also rates at 91 PON (the US RON/MON outcome) which is be below the 93 PON that I would expect equates to the premium designation. The only 93 PON gas I am aware of in Canada is some PetroCanada premium, which does have ethanol. Sure seems like unecessary confusion on how these measurements are communicated.

    Still not sure what NO and BSI Standards means, 4 starts and 5 stars. And those European's using division signs, never sure what that means either. I think BSI means British Standard, the division sign the same as a dash in the US meaning a range of 98-100, The N.O. probably means ?? Octane, no clue on the Star system.
     
  14. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
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    Apr 25, 2010
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    Isn't octane booster made with alcohol? Plus, I remember reading somewhere that your typical "104 Octane Booster' only raises the true octane by about .25 - .40 US Standard, not the 2.5 or 4.0 points that you expect.

    Also, from what I understand, our engines are not "high compression" and run just fine on 89 octane, (is that US or EU octane spec? Hmmm) although you may benefit from better additives in name brand "premium" fuels.

    From the interwebs:
    "Octane boosters usually contain one active ingredient, sometimes diluted in a solvent (like toluene). Typical active ingredients for octane improvers are alcohols, ethers, manganese (MMT), or tetraethyl lead (TEL). ALCOHOLS: Methanol and ethanol are alcohols which have been used as octane boosters."

    Can't we talk about motor oil instead? Motor oil threads usually result in threats and bans, lots of fun, lol!
    Alden
     
  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Do you have a Ferrari Print Number for that 1988 Swiss Mondial 3.2 OM, and does it also show the compression ratio? I've only got a copy of the 1987 Swiss Mondial 3.2 OM 435/87 and it shows the compression ratio as 9.2:1 but no fuel spec. The US OM also shows a compression of 9.2:1 and a fuel spec of 95 RON minimum (so 91 AKI fuel in the US would meet that); whereas, the euro OM shows a compression ratio of 9.8:1 and the fuel spec that you show of 98-100 RON. Anyway, just wondering if your Swiss Mondial 3.2 has the same lower compression ratio as a US version (and my guess is it would since they are both "with Lambda" and "with catalyst"), but they wrongly copied the fuel spec for the higher compression non-Lamba, no cat euro version?
     
  16. Wade

    Wade Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Just a bit of boost needed... from 90 to hopefully 91. ;)

    From the STP Octane Booster SDS:


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  17. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie
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    That could very well be, since the Swiss Mondial 3.2 is the only one with a cat on the European continent. However, I know for a fact a F friend of mine in NL, who has a Swiss 3.2 model, is filling up with 98 RON (euro)
     
  18. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

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  19. Wade

    Wade Two Time F1 World Champ
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  20. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Compression ratio in the manual is 9.8:1. The manual is cat. 497/88 n.400
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of that 497/88 OM, but, if it's specifically for a 1988 Swiss 3.2 Mondial, I'd suspect that they copied both the wrong compression ratio and the wrong fuel spec from the euro version OM. The 1987 Swiss Mondial 3.2 OM 435/87 is not really a complete OM, and is more of a supplement with only the "new" information for that year/version versus a euro version. If they then did a more complete OM for a 1988 Swiss 3.2 Mondial (based on the euro OM file), typos and oversights can occur IME. My "evidence" for this would be that the SPC shows that the same piston being used for US, C7 (Swiss 1987), and C8 (Swiss 1988) versions:

    https://www.ricambiamerica.com/car-diagrams/ferrari/v6-v8/mondial-group/mondial-3-2/crankshaft-connecting-rods-and-pistons.html

    Does your 1988 Swiss 3.2 Mondial have a catalyst, an air injection system, and insulated headers? Does your 497/88 OM show it having a catalyst, an air injection system, and insulated headers?
     
  22. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    I don't know about the 3.2 but the manual for my 308 QV says minimum 91 RON which is 87 pump octane in the USA. I've been running regular, 87 octane for 34 years with no problems. I could never figure out why some run the highest they can get. The 308 QV is pretty low compression ratio.

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  23. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Yes, I have the catalyst, insulated headers, air injection, the KE3 fuel injection system. Extra sound deadening, and the lower gearing. There is one anomoly, my manual shows the Swiss air injection with the big round expansion tank, but my car has the US style of air injection without.
     
  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
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    #24 Steve Magnusson, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
    That does seem a rather minimal difference -- if that CH version air injection expansion tank was plastic, and had failed, it would be easy to replace it with the low cost "T" like on the US version ;)

    Are there any other obviously incorrect holdover euro version specs shown in your 497/88 OM Section 1? Or maybe some mis-references in Section 3 to K-Jetronic rather than KE3-Jetronic? (I can see the introduction of the KE3-Jetronic system necessitating them to do a more significant OM rewrite in 1988 vs the 1987.)
     
  25. Wade

    Wade Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This is from the 328 (US version) Technical Updates Document:


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