Fun with the 348 gearbox | FerrariChat
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Fun with the 348 gearbox

Discussion in '348/355' started by reinerkaiser, Mar 31, 2011.

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  1. reinerkaiser

    reinerkaiser Karting

    Nov 25, 2003
    151
    Redondo Beach
    Full Name:
    Reiner Kaiser
    #1 reinerkaiser, Mar 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So I heard this whine coming from my gearbox (again) some time back, which could only mean one thing: park the car immediately, take the gearbox out and investigate further. This happened before (~3 years ago) and thanks to the help of some of the FChat gurus (Ernie, FBB) we were able to diagnose and fix (bad Lay shaft bearing). So, I took the gearbox out to investigate. I won't bore you with the details of how I did that, but what I found after (partial) disassembly might interest some of you:

    1) bearing on the OTHER shaft (oil pump side, main shaft) was now disintegrating, to the point where some of the steel balls were already rolling around in the gearbox sump. sorry no pictures.. in a way you could argue this was my fault, since i did not replace that bearing the first time around... I did have it inspected though and the balls replaced but I guess that wasn't good enough.

    2) after installing the new bearing, declaring success and re-installing the gearbox, the whine was still there. After consulting further with FatBillyBob and using a mechanics Stethoscope I thought i localized the whine to be coming from close to where the clutch shaft is. Since the throwout bearing was already rebuilt, it could only be the dreaded clutch shaft issue. So, using FBB's special tool (many thanks FBB!) and a propane torch for some heat to persuade the clutch shaft bearing to come out, I was able to remove clutch shaft plus bearing from the gearbox. As expected, the ring nut was loose, the clutch shaft splines were already eaten up quite a bit but the gear teeth were still ok. This convinced me that I could try the "FatBillyBob" clutch shaft repair, i.e. solid weld of the gear onto the clutch shaft after grinding off the ring nut lip! (see picture).

    3) re-installed clutch shaft, whine still there!

    I am now a bit clueless. I guess next will be a complete teardown of the gearbox, no more Mr. Nice Guy! so my question for the 348 gurus on here:

    a) one suspicion I have is that (apart from the gear not being perfectly centric after the weld) that a similar deteriorating spline eating motion was happening on the pinion gear shaft which also has the same splines and same ring nut setup, right? Has anyone seen that before and is that a likely cause for the whine?

    b) having read some of the threads about gearbox disassembly, I think one would first take out the Diff (using bearing pullers on either side of the CV joint connectors), remove the massive drive gear and then hammer out both main and lay shafts from the oil pump side... any tips/tricks there? anything to watch out for other than making sure all parts are numbered/labeled carefully?

    c) anyone know where a good used gearbox can be bought :-/. I guess there is one on ebay right now for 6k (5k plus core charge) but not sure what that condition is, it may (will?) have all the same issues we have seen over and over again now. Ferrari SPA, designing this gearbox was not your master piece..

    thanks all!
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  2. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    29,062
    socal
    #2 fatbillybob, Mar 31, 2011
    couple of comments....

    Is whine in same place or new place?

    Welding is tricky. Was ringnut torqued on and gear centered on clutchshaft best possible before tackwelding in 4 places before welding circumfirentially?

    check runout of the cutch shaft with a dial gage. Too much heat can warp the shaft.

    You can open small inspection hole from bellhouse side and put prussian blue on lower pinion gear and check mating to the upper clutch shaft gear.

    Before teardown spec the synchros. The easy solution is to tear it down and rebuild it perfect. Sometimes you are the bug and sometimes you are the windshield.
     
  3. rbellezza

    rbellezza F1 Rookie

    Jun 18, 2008
    2,793
    Henderson, NV
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    Roberto Bellezza
    #3 rbellezza, Mar 31, 2011
    The 348 gear box .... the best !
     
  4. reinerkaiser

    reinerkaiser Karting

    Nov 25, 2003
    151
    Redondo Beach
    Full Name:
    Reiner Kaiser
    #4 reinerkaiser, Mar 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    the whine is still in the same place, appears to still come from the clutch shaft.
    thanks for the idea with the Prussian blue, will try that on Saturday. The ring nut was tightened with a impact wrench and the gear "appeared" perfectly centered but was not measured ... anyways I instructed the welder to spot weld in place first.oh well if the clutch shaft is bad it's going to be curtains for this box unless i can find a replacement shaft with gear plus matching pinion gear somewhere...
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  5. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,614
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    #5 ernie, Apr 1, 2011
    The whine is from either low/no oil between the gears, or the gears not mating fully. So check everything if you still have the box out. There has to be zero play in the box.

    Have you opened up the oil pump to make sure the passages aren't clogged? There is a small o-ring on the lay shaft that needs to be replaced. It's located inside the hole on the side of the shaft. Then make sure the pin is still in the lay shaft, because it has to fit in the groove for the oil pump gear to turn it.

    Other than that it's hard to say.

    Pm me your number Reiner and maybe we have a Stooge meet at your place to really screw things up. :D :D Nothing like a bunch of knuckled heads getting together to try and fix something.
     
  6. reinerkaiser

    reinerkaiser Karting

    Nov 25, 2003
    151
    Redondo Beach
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    Reiner Kaiser
    #6 reinerkaiser, Apr 1, 2011
    Ernie I had that area apart and inspected/cleaned the filter plus completely disassembled oil pump and bought a new (stupidly expensive) metal gasket ring for the lay shaft. Yes of course a "stooge" meeting to beat up on my gearbox would be very welcome. I'll send PM.
     
  7. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #7 ernie, Apr 1, 2011
    Got the pm, I'll contact fatman and Plugz.
     
  8. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

    Feb 6, 2009
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    #8 AceMaster, Apr 1, 2011
    It's actually a 355 ;)
     
  9. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 ernie, Apr 1, 2011
    Look again. It's a head fake.
     
  10. reinerkaiser

    reinerkaiser Karting

    Nov 25, 2003
    151
    Redondo Beach
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    Reiner Kaiser
    #10 reinerkaiser, Apr 1, 2011
    the rear view mirror and deck lid gives it away... yes it's a 348 :)
     
  11. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

    Feb 6, 2009
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    #11 AceMaster, Apr 1, 2011
    My apologies to Roberto Bellezza :)

    That sure is one SERIOUS head-fake :):)
     
  12. TheOnlyest

    TheOnlyest Formula 3

    Sep 25, 2007
    1,686
    Las Vegas Nevada, US
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    Steve
    #12 TheOnlyest, Apr 1, 2011
    I have a complete working gearbox if you need it, 16K miles from a 1992 (pumpkin and TO bearing not included).
    And a helluva lot less than $6K too! All I would ask is that you eventually properly and completely refurb/repair yours so it would be available to another brother in need one day.
     
  13. reinerkaiser

    reinerkaiser Karting

    Nov 25, 2003
    151
    Redondo Beach
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    Reiner Kaiser
    #13 reinerkaiser, Apr 1, 2011
    i can definitely see myself going down that road. We'll have a gearbox schlachtfest this weekend and I'll know more after that. Will send you a PM. thanks a bunch!
     
  14. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #14 AceMaster, Apr 2, 2011
    Steve, you are a true brother indeed ;)
     
  15. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 ernie, Apr 2, 2011
    Okay I'm coming out later this afternoon Reiner.

    Any of the other Stooges gonna show up?
     
  16. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
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    Dec 1, 2004
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    Bruce Bogart
    #16 plugzit, Apr 2, 2011
    Time and location?
     
  17. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #17 ernie, Apr 2, 2011
    Between 2:30-3:00pm and Reiners house.
     
  18. TheOnlyest

    TheOnlyest Formula 3

    Sep 25, 2007
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    Steve
    #18 TheOnlyest, Apr 2, 2011
    Thanks Mike, but the truest brothers are Ernie, Bruce and FBB!
    I do what I can, and i'll always only be an honorary Stooge.
    I would LOVE to be able to be at Reiner's house today!
     
  19. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
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    #19 PAP 348, Apr 2, 2011
    You guys have way too much fun! :eek::eek:
     
  20. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
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    The Bad Guy
    #20 ernie, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011
    Just got back from Reiner's house. There was play in the drop gear that is on the pinion shaft = no good, so we proceeded to take it apart. Plugz showed up with the "especiale-Ferrari-main-shaft-removal-impact-enhancer-tool" that we used on Steve-o's gearbox. LOL!!! Poor Reiner busted open his thumb when he was unpeening one of the ring nuts. So I had to take over on that job. Got the ring nuts unpeened and proceeded to use Chubbalard's ring nut tool to remove the nuts. Then is was beat the hell out of the shaft time. :D Got the main shaft out, the gears and syncros, then removed the dif, but we didn't get to the lay shaft. I had to be on my way as it was getting late. Reiner took a bunch of pics, maybe he'll post 'em up?
     
  21. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #21 PAP 348, Apr 2, 2011
    Nice update. :D:D
     
  22. reinerkaiser

    reinerkaiser Karting

    Nov 25, 2003
    151
    Redondo Beach
    Full Name:
    Reiner Kaiser
    #22 reinerkaiser, Apr 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    many thanks to Ernie and Bruce for helping with the disassembly. We did make good progress even though it appears that the damage to the box may not be repairable at reasonable cost (compared to the price of a used box. We could see that the pinion gear ("drop gear") had about ~5 degrees play on the shaft indicating that the bevel gear shaft and drop gear splines were probably as badly chewed up as then ones on the clutch shaft. How could this have happened to a car with less than 50k miles?? Anyways attached are a few pictures, we'll take more once the bad gear is retrieved.
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  23. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 ernie, Apr 4, 2011
    Did you get ahold of the fatman for that other ring nuts socket of his? You know for the smaller one in the back under the throw out bearing.
     
  24. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,220
    Mount Isa, Australia
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    Pap
    #24 PAP 348, Apr 4, 2011
    Looks like a simple box to work on. :D:D
     
  25. race850i

    race850i Karting

    Jan 6, 2010
    132
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Themis
    #25 race850i, Apr 6, 2011
    Im about to rebuild my Gearbox also,its 355 and everybody knows about my Layshaft Bearing failure.So l bought an other Gearbox to drive the car and my Original gearbox is on the table for the Surgery.
    To the Experts now,
    To take out the both Shafts do l need to tear apart the Differential too???

    I want to change all the 4 Bearings on the Layshaft cause the shaft its playing right and left about half cm.

    thanks in advance
     
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