Funny how nobody complains of Renault's "Team Orders."

Thank you for stating the bleeding fncken obvious that the rest of these Ferrari one-eyed idiots cannot see, for example:

and ofcourse:

This situation that Renault are in is COMPLETELY different to the Ferrari situation.

Renault in case you do not know has NEVER EVER won a DRIVERS world championship and thus are trying for this. Ferrari on the other hand when they forced RB to give way at Zeltweg had already won plenty!!!!!!!

Thus it is NOT the same situation at all.

Now if Renault win this year ... then if they play team orders again next year it is WRONG, but you cannot blame them this year.

Ferrari could have and should have played the game more sporting ONCE (and note the once as it is important) they won again after the 21 year drought ... but before they won, yep do whatever it takes to win ...

Pete

 

Some drivers can find the edge easier than others. MS (for example) uses out laps from the pits during practice to find that edge ... why does he do this?, so that when he leaves the pits during the race he has practiced racing hard on cold(er) tyres and also ofcourse for that first lap.

Thus I think Fisi is too scared and delicate and can only assume that he is matching FA in qualifying due to really pushing himself personally, and probably feels very uncomfortable about it.

Pete

 

This isn't the way I read the situation or Andreas' post. My objection to Ferrari's team Orders in Austria was that Rubens still had a chance of becoming champion. I though Ferrari were stupid to take points off him when he still had a chance. If Michael had broken his leg at the next race they would have thrown the championship away - again. This happened in 1999. They made Irvine move over for Schumacher in France. In Britain Michael broke his leg. Irvine lost the championship by 2 points. If they hadn't used team Orders earlier in the season he would have finished on equal points to Hakkinen, but he would have been champion due to winning more races.
My objection to Ferrari's team orders is that they are short-sighted and they start the season with the objective of getting Michael to win, rather than just one of their drivers.

Renault were a bit clever with their team orders these weekend. They told Alonso to pass Fisi. They did not tell Fisi to let Alonso by. Of course Fisi would have known that he had to move over, but they aren't allowed to say it on-air. This is a ridiculous situation as I think team-orders are perfectly acceptable if one team member is in with a shout at the championship and the other one isn't. Unfortunately due to the arrogance and stupidity shown by Ferrari in Austria the teams now have to play these silly games where they pretend they are not actually giving orders.

 

If a team has spent $500 million contesting the WDC and MC, don't they have the right to decide how to use their assets? As a fan I don't like to see somebody I support being told to step aside for the "Chosen One" but its a decision the team has to take. As some have said in this thread, those decisions sometimes are mistakes - this is the risk. They also to a lesser degree risk alienating fans - but I don't think they care too much about that.

Stacking the odds for or against a particular driver (giving the faster engine or aero tweak to one team member) has the same effect as telling one driver to stand down in favor of the other. They are a part of racing and we should get used to it.

 

Brilliant analysis on both arguments! BRAVO! One question though: Did Fisi hear the message to Alonso? I would think that was a thinly hidden message they have prediscussed and might have transmitted simultaneously on both comm channels. Anybody know?


Pete, I don't agree with your point about Renault going for their first title. It doesn't matter how many titles you have won or not. Team orders are illegal. Of course EVERYBODY uses them (euphemism used nowadays is "pit strategy"). So the FIA should do the same thing they did when they realized they couldn't ban/control Traction Control: Officially allow it.

 

Okay, if we're completely putting aside the technical reg against "team orders" and the technicality of the way the on-air message was worded, we come to the question of:

When are team orders appropriate?

Turkey 2005: Renault has a lead, but they're facing a clearly faster McLaren package that has reliability issues. Both teams have a hot young driver, backed up by a driver with bouts of brain fade (late spins, or stalling in the pits). Both #2 drivers are out of the running to win, place, or show in the driver's points. 13 down, 6 to go. It's going to be close: Team Orders.

Austria 2002: Michael was an unmatched driver with more points than the next TWO drivers combined. Rubens, due to several equipment DNF issues, was 6th in the drivers standings. 5 down, 12 to go. Michael took four of the first five. With that package, Ferrari would be slumming to take less than constructors and BOTH first AND second driver's places. Dumping on Rubens to put Michael even further ahead: Bonehead move.

The logical "team orders" would have been to tell Michael to NOT pass, because Rubens needed those two points more. And he earned 'em.

Then there's HOW the team orders happened in Austria: Clearly demonstrating that Rubens didn't "blow it" to let Michael by, they recognized Ruben's run ... but still had Michael take the points away.

Okay, we could argue that one either way: Would holding Rubens up in the pits a bit longer be more "honest"? Would telling Rubino to "go wide" on the turn (like Montoya in Turkey 05) to let Michael go by be more honest? More entertaining?

If you're going to have team orders, why hide them?

Answer: Because FIA will over-react by making up some bonehead regulation against "team orders". Yeah, sure.

Welcome to the "dim" ages.

 

This wasn't even the whole story. One blatant misuse of team orders might have gone by without a rule change, but Austria had a knock on effect as Michael felt the need to give that victory back to Rubens on two following occasions (one being hidden as a driver error, the world champ doesn't know the finish line, yeah right). So the fans (and bookies) were cheated out of three race results for no good reason. Plus we had an embarrassing trophy ceremony in Austria. All that combined enraged the FIA.

On a related note: How about the McLaren team asking DC to let Mika win his first victory? It wasn't about WC title or points. It was simply Ron Dennis caressing and building up Mika's fragile ego. And it did the trick. Was that fair game? I don't think so.

 

Whatever . If you cannot see why this team order was acceptable and most of recent Ferrari ones were not ... then I just don't know ... ??

Team orders are fine until unsporting ... what is sporting and what isn't confuses many. The ban on team orders was an attempt to remind the teams that sportsmanship still does count ...
Pete

 

Okay I'm struggling with you, but are you saying what Renault did was unsporting?

I guess you could say that ... but what FERRARI did was 1 million times more unsporting and totally unnecessary.

Call me a hypocrite if you like, but team orders Ferrari style is completely unsporting, while team orders for Renault (this year) have been nothing but a new team trying to win. Like I said, if Renault do it AFTER winning the world DRIVERS championship then I'll have a different view.

The other difference is that RB had actually performed like a racing driver, unlike Fisi and Ferrari took that win away from him on the very last lap. Fisi would NEVER have led that race until the very end.

Pete

 

Not to be nitpicking, but I believe the call came about three laps before the end and it was Rubens who decided to make a mockery out of it by waiting until the s/f line was in sight.

 

And for once I am (was) right on RB's side. I would have stopped 2 inches before the finish line and got out of the car ... and left the fncken thing there, and then bowed to the almightly MS God as he drove past to win

Pete