Future Appreciation of 512BB vs. 512BBi

Diplomatic response coming from a guy that must own one of the finest bbi's on the planet!!

 

my opinion ,, 365 for investment..
i believe 512 is 50/50 bb vs bbi
i own a great bbi .. but 365 was very low production, if its investment your after
pay the extra and go for a 365 . if its performance, a more modern 512 bbi
are the easiest to go with . turn the key

 

I was out roaring around in my BB with my race driver brother this afternoon... he said he had never driven a carb car which was so smooth, didn't spit or snap, etc...

IMO, the only advantage the injected cars have over a properly running carb car is that the injected ones are easier to start when it's cold.

From an investment point of view, while I think Boxers (of any variety) are probably the best investments in the Ferrari world, I don't think that they are particularly good investments. The holding costs (maintenance, insurance, etc) are just too high to make sense as an investment.

Of course, if they go to $300k over the next year, I'll be proven wrong...

 

Interestingly, I was just looking at Hagerty's valuation tool. They value an average BB at $97k, and an average BBi at $109k.

So take that for whatever it's worth-- that seems about right to me.

 

365 / 512 BB or BBi is for sure a good decision

365 BB may be the most interesting car, especially for collectors - or people that don't drive too much, with spare parts even more difficult to find than 512 BB or BBi and the weakest gearbox.

512 BB is the last V12 with carburetors - the end of an era!

512 BBi has little less power and some minor optical changes (some people don't like - mirror)

I would look after a nice car! If there is a good 512 BBi rigth priced, I would probably take it over a 365. If there is a one/two owner car with original paint in very good shape this would be the best way to good (imo).

 

365 Cams don't fit.

I have a set that are also reground, Distributor end is entirely different.

 

Hmmm pity, wonder how the 365 grind would work with the larger bore.

The guys at caribou in california seem to do a lot of custom stuff. they seem to get 450 hp out of a Bb engine and something like 420 out of a BBI, but that is pistons heads and cams, so youre talking a complete motor redo at leasy 30k+.

I always play with the idea of doing a EFI setup with BB cams. The 308 guys seem to have come up with an efi setup that just plugs in to the injector squirt holes no machineing required.

For those with the more unlimited budget I know of two new 512m motors for sale about $25K plus whatever else needs to be done for the conversion. I am guessing one would need a stand alone efi system plus 512m gearbox plus a whole lot of little bits to make it fit. 50K?

Myself i have just been through a through FDI overhaul, heads redone with new valves, cams line honed in heads, new fuel pumps etc. Lets just say the whole beast is markedly faster and stronger. The only issue now is that power is so strong down low that one really can feel the power tapering after 6500 rpms, which is very much a cam thing.

I have also seen efi setups from porche guys where the intakes look pretty much like weber velocity stacks. But then you also need a whole computer efi sustem to run them, and cams which brings things to about 15k plus.

 

All of this stuff has been available for quite a few years. The manifolds specifically are available from TWM. I considered doing the Weber to EFI swap on my 365about 8 years ago and decided against it. With the exception of just a handful, most of these EFI conversions are nothing more than expensive science projects... that will certainly will cause the value of the car to plummet. A Boxer with either Webers or CIS, set-up correctly, is a joy to drive.

 

Science project, too true. Its just that coming form motorcycles I am a big believer in uncorking an engine and letting it breathe, the cis intake airflow is pretty convoluted.

Without changing a boxer too much you can really let it be all it was m,eant to be, David you and I already know that in terms of tires. On a 365 it is pretty tuned and there is power wise not too far to go, on a BBI it is def stifled to a degree.

In the end I got my boxer motor running great, and wheels and tires. Now def need to bring it to you one of these years for a suspension redo. The balance that could have been spent on a non stock motor went to a lotus elise a car that is happy to be lapped and pretty light on the track consumables.

The biggest change I ever had to a car was remaping the computer on my M3, suddenly I understood waht all the fuss was about, untill then it was fast but languid. There is a lot to be said for a properly tuned and running motor.

I am guessing that very few boxers run really great.

 

Ah yes. But for those who have... on the same day... on upstate roads... Read Forza 109.
Sorry; couldn't resist.

Truly: If the car runs well and is well sorted, there is NO 'bad' Boxer. And the 365 will carry the premium because there are only 387 of them.

I'll say this: At least the Boxer series looks true to the 365 original. Yeah, the 512 is wider in the back and the rear deck change and rear valence/lamps change, etc. But the design is the same. The poor Countach, which started as a minimalist (but aggressive) exercise in wedge-ism as the LP400 turned into a PowerThirst parody with QV5K. And that was almost 30 years BEFORE the PowerThirst parody!

 

I agree, especially if they still have the US emissions control stuff fitted.

However, if you try a great running Boxer, you really can see what a magnificent car it is.

I'm not in the same camp regarding tires. I believe the Boxer's suspension was designed to work with large, soft sidewalls, and if you go to lower profile tires, you may get some marginal improvement in the limits, but you give up the beautiful suppleness that the stock setup has-- while still having tremendous cornering ability and suspension control.

 

The stock tires actualy have a much harder and harsher ride, and I am running PS2's which are not known to be soft by modern standards. So if its supple ness its not from stock tires.


The modern rubber gives a delicay to the front end totaly different from the heavy stock setup. Lastly becayse the sidewall do not flex larteraly like rubber bands on the stock setup there is a directness and responssivenss, as well a predictability at the limit, the stock setup just lacks.

For whatever reason ferrari stuck with the metric tires, when porche and lambo went to the p7. Even in period the mertics were not well regarded being considdered to be very snappy at the limit.

Yes modern very low profile rubber on say a 67 vette will feel hard, but the boxer suspension is way softer than many modern cars, and modern tires are way better than even a p7. Plus a 17 in rim and 45 series tire is not exactly low profile. Stock tires need a lot of air pressure and this actualy makes for a harder more brittle ride. The proof is in the eating and the reality is if you try it you wont belive the difference it makes.

If you look at the stock alignment for the metric tires it makes strange reading, the only explanation can be that ferrai was trying to compensate for the high degree of variability from the extreme sidewall flex from the michelins.

I'll sum up modern rubber like this. Way Way better ride, in fact suspension could use tightening. A delicacy to the wheel that while not lotus like is in a completly dfferent league to stock, you would not belive it is the same car. A predicatbility at the limit which
makes the boxer fun to play with as opposed to a snappy angry mangy dog.

I tried it all new shocks new TRX's aligment suspension rebuild, i too was afraid of loosing delicacy. Dont fool yourself the stock rubber is basicaly crap, it was crap then and it even worse crap now. The TR had TRx's for one year for good reason. Its like going from bias ply to radials. I am on my second set of modern wheels, and have played with alignment, so have worked around a bit for optimum street setup.
yes ferrari tuned the car for crap michelins, but now there are much better options and great alignmnets to go with them. Modern rubber unlocks the othe half of the car, and you can get non bling wheels that closely approximate stock. then keep the stock for a car show..

 

I don't know about TRXs-- I have XWXs, and the ride is not harsh at all. I've driven my Boxer hard on the track as well as on the bumpy pavement around here which approximates a road, and it works very well on both.

I obviously haven't driven your setup, nor have I spent a lot of time in a TRX-equipped BBi (although I have driven an early TR, and as I recall it was a bit harsh). However, I'm quite happy with mine.

Ferrari didn't just randomly choose the XWX tire. They actively participated in it's development, to the point that the Daytona was initially designed as a testbed for it, in preparation for it's use on the mid-engine cars to come.

 

I agree completely. With modern rubber and wheels on the car, approaching 10 years, the difference is almost amazing. The ride quality is no where near harsh...and "compliant" might be a better word. She's a delight to drive, now. Candidly, before the wheel/tire alignment setting swap, I would frequently see the rear license plate in the side mirror...

 

XWX was the first real good radial in the late 60's. I had a Lambo 350Gt with them, and the look and grip worked on that older front engined car, more grip would have overwhelmed the wire wheels and suspension. Such is not the case with a boxer. Remember a TR is basicaly aheavier slightly longer boxer and the more modern setup really worked well by the time they went to the 512 Tr.

If you could have the delicacy you have from your XWX's with better precision predicatbility and grip? What modern rubber does is unlock a truely awesome suspension design.

In any event David has a 365 and seems to agree on the modern rubber thing. David, I hear you about the license plate in the mirror, saw it twice, now one can just ease off and correct throught he wheel, so much more fun, so much more adjustability feedback and predictability.

It's one of those things, once you try it you will never go back.

 

i'm not sure if it has been said or not, but i think the real 'wild card', value wise, is whether car is in original 'spec' or if it has been Federalized for North America...

the unmolested BB/BBi will obviously be the ones to appreciate the most, so if it's investment potential you're after, look for a BB or BBi that is as it left the Factory.

that aside, after the 365 the carbed 512 that will lead the way...how closely the BBi follows the carbed car will depend on it's condition.

a great condition BBi probably won't fair too badly in comparison, but i believe it will always be less valuable...

but i have no reason for thinking that other than the fact that it would always be less valuable to me.

 

If the Boxer follows the decades old trend of almost all other marques and models, the 365GT4/BB( first year of production) and BB512i(last year of production) will appreciate the most. Why do you guys opine that the Boxer will do just the opposite?

 

Try this on for size:
BBi will become more valuable than other varients primarily resulting from the uniqueTRX application.

David, Sean, and some of the rest of us who have "upgraded" will still be enjoying our devalued Boxers more

With thinking like that, you can see why I don't buy cars for any other reason than personal enjoyment, lol!
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And based on the ride you took me on in your BBi a year or so ago, you certainly enjoy your car to its fullest!!!