Seems all of our lives, we've always had many things to be concerned about. Some major, some minor. It may seem my concerns fall into the minor category when I ask the future direction of Ferrari. Having been a Ferrari owner for 50 years, I do qualify as lover of Ferrari and it's been a large part of my life. With all the growing Fiat direction and so many stories about how the marque was/is going to evolve, I hope the rumors are false. I haven't seen a lot of postings on this subject. I'm posting on the Maranello section as I feel these owners are more familiar with the old and new. Happy New Year. John Annis, Tampa
Hello John and Happy New Year to you, I'm a Ferrari owner from only 8 years, and I agree with you that the future direction of Ferrari could be a concerns fall into the minor category .... However i think that the new direction "Machine Direction" would be not do more satisfaction in the middle or long time ... for sure yes in the short time because Marchionne, with the increase number of production cars and with lots of new models, bring the drink to the world rich man that want a Ferrari .... The opposite of this marketing is that the value of used Ferrari go down in worry mode ... a mode that will be near the other "normal" brands car ... The good thing is that all Ferrari's before this era could be increase their value because become so rare respect the new models numbers and irrepetible ... This is my little thinking .. Best From Italy Fabio
Dear Fabio, I am only a 3 year owner of a Ferrari, but I can say that I have had a passion for Ferrari my entire life, from Formula 1 racing to the production cars. I will start by saying that I was quite upset when Marchionne forced Luca Di Montezemolo to resign, because it was my feeling that he was a direct link to Enzo, to the history and the heart of Ferrari. Furthermore, the trumped up reasons for his forced resignation were ridiculous since Montezemolo was not only instrumental in Ferrari's resurgent golden Schumacher era when Ferrari's record was consistently unsurpassed but in bringing Ferrari production cars and quality into the modern era to be the high quality superior performance products they are today. In short it was a carefully orchestrated move by Marchionne to eliminate someone with opposing views about the future of Ferrari. Now after a year has passed and having said that, I have to admit that I am quite happy with the turnaround on the Formula 1 side under Maurizio Arrivabenes direction and with the outstanding driving by Sebastian Vettel, and I hope for further improvement in 2016. On the Ferrari corporate and production car side of course the big news is the listing of Ferrari on the NYSE and upcoming listing on the Milano Borsa Italiana so that the FCA can extract the maximum funds in order to refinance the hoped for resurrection of Alfa Romeo and Maserati. No doubt this was a major contentious issue between Montezemolo and Marchionne when Montezemolo was still at Ferrari as it was given as one of the reasons for his resignation. In principle the idea of stealing from Peter to pay Paul is obviously not a good one, but in practice I feel that it does hold out some promise for all parties if things go according to plan. First, though I am a Tifoso and as well as a lover of Ferraris, I also have a soft spot for all the great Italian marques, and particularly for those with prominent racing histories such as Alfa Romeo and Maserati (I would include Lancia but at this stage I dont think there is hope for them). I welcome Maseratis and Alfa Romeos resurgence and I was very happy to see Alfa Romeo return to North America. Second, the increase in production of Ferraris from 7000 per year (in reality its been as high as 7800 in the past) to 9000 or even the hinted 10000 cars in present day, when China has become a very strong customer market and possibly India may become one as well is not so much of a dilution of the brand as one may think. In the greater scheme of things, it is an extremely low number when you consider all the separate regular models now being produced from the California T, 488, 488 Spider, FF, to the F12. On an even split this works out to only 1400 cars per year, however, considering that the V8 cars sell 3 to 1, it means 1750 each of the California T, 488 and 488 Spider per year, and only 875 per year for the F12 and FF. Shifting to 9000 it will be a slightly higher 2250 each per year for the V8 cars and 1125 for the V12 cars. Its not as dramatic as one may think. Furthermore, thinking long term, even those #s are very small when one considers the amount of investment required to continue to develop 5 separate car models on a competitive level. Though Marchionne has said that he would like the current mix of V8 to V12 at 3 to 1 to shift to of 2 to 1, I believe that will be a lot harder to achieve. Lastly, since Marchionne has indicated that he wants to bring back the Dino brand within Ferrari, something that I for one would love to see and I would think that many Ferrari lovers would want as well, that extra 6th model will also be part of the 9000 (to 10,000) car per year production cap. I am assuming that the proposed upcoming Dino (2018 target) to compete with Mclarens 540 and 570 lines will have a V6 like the original (though most probably with Turbos). So in effect though we may be seeing more Ferraris on the road, they will be different non-conflicting models. Is this a bad thing? Lastly, I agree with you Fabio in that it will also mean that older existing Ferraris can expect to both retain and increase in value as a result of these upcoming changes. Gentlemen, on a separate note doesnt the idea of Ferrari untethered from FIAT and Chrysler make sense? It does to me. As such we must accept the fundamental economics of the modern world and if we want Ferrari to remain a healthy going concern and to continue to produce outstanding cars as well as to continue to compete in Formula 1 and other racing categories, then we must face the realities of increased production. The investment has to come from somewhere. All the best from Canada Clyde
Hi Clyde, When i was young my father had a GIULIA Nuova Super 1300 dated 1976, this car was a very alfa romeo, was designed from people different to the Fiat designers .... The design philosophy was different, i not want to tell better or bad, this is personal taste, but was different .... and some people likes this differentiation. Today we have the following: - Maserati MC12 is a great car, but is an Enzo with Maserati emblems - Maserati Ghibli have lots of engine parts with the Chrysler stamp (is clearly derived from Chrysler engine, is sufficient search on google some pictures of maserati and chrysler and confront ..), chassis is of Chrysler 300, inside layout is clearly by chrysler .... - Lancia Thema is shamelessly a Chrysler 300 only with Lancia emblems - Lancia Phedra is the same shamelessly of Chrysler Voyager - New Giulia QV is a Ghibli SQ4 (Than a Chrysler 300) with some different external body parts .... The only premium is the manual gear box. - The hypothetical new Dino Ferrari for sure will have the V6 Maserati (then derived from Chrysler engine) - F12 have the same DCT transmission of MM SLS, that is from Getrag .... - Alfa romepo perhaps will be n F1 .. Oh yes... but with his engine? no .. for sure with the Ferrari engine of past year .... Are all great cars, but are cars of other brand that are "only revised" by Maserati or Alfa ... What is the last car totally designed and thinked by the Maserati and Alfa Romeo People ....? Ok probably this is the new world, the globalization, perhaps we can't do other .. but is totally different from the original character of the italian car brands .... I could agree if you tell that is the new era, but you can't tell me that is like the old Alfa, Maserati & Lancia .... those was another world ... I'm Italian and I write this without happy .... My is not law, probalby for more people of Chat i'm in wrong, sorry.... This is only my personal think and for sure not will do anything on the global marketing of the "pullover Marchionne" .... Best Fabio
Dear Fabio, Unfortunately my father was always an American car person, but my love was always for Italian cars, and I do remember distinctly the Alfa Romeo Duetto, the Spider and the Alfa Romeo GTV, all cars that I loved in addition to the the original Fiat 124 Spider (yes, even a Fiat). I also remember more fondly the Maserati Mistral, Indy, the original Ghibli, Khamsin, Bora, Merak, all outstanding exotic cars equal at least in design to the Ferraris of the day (if not performance). I loved those cars. Its tragic to see what happened to these Italian brands over the years. If Alfa Romeo would have had good direction then today they may have been equivalent to BMW in stature and volume worldwide as Alfa Romeo was the original sports sedan. As for Maserati, had they had just a little more luck in the way Lamborghini did for example, then they may have continued to be a true competitor to Ferrari, leaving less room for McLaren to enter the market (not that McLaren being in the market is a bad thing). There is no car company immune to globalization today including Ferrari. Even Mercedes and BMW use Chinese manufactured parts (as well a producing some models in China which are sold there). So does the fact that the F12 uses a getrag DCT transmission, the same as in the Merc SLS, make it less of a Ferrari? Overall I think not. You forgot to mention the Maserati GranTurismo and GranCabrio which use a Ferrari engine and the Alfa Romeo 4C which is not only using a Ferrari/Maserati derived engine but is produced inside the Maserati factory. True they are not the car companies of old, but what is? Aren’t you happy to see that Maserati will be introducing the beautiful Altieri or that the new Alfa Romeo Guilia Quadrofolio will be an M4 beating sports sedan even with a Ferrari derived engine? Today Bugatti, Bentley and Lamborghini are owned by VW as is Porsche (who were never really far removed anyway). Porsche is making SUVs and sedans, could you have imagined that in the past (however they are its best selling models now and very profitable for the company which helps them continue to produce the 911 and Cayman)? Rolls Royce is owned by BMW and uses their engines. Land Rover and Jaguar used to be owned by Ford no less, and are now owned by Indian Tata. Aston Martin formerly owned by Ford is owned by both Italian interests as well as a small percentage by Mercedes for which it will be receiving future V8 engines etc… Even Pininfarina were recently sold to Indian interests and last year Pirelli was purchased by Chinese interests. What I am trying to point out is that its a different world today, and no one is immune to globalization. At least Maserati and Alfa Romeo are still existent brands today as they could have very easily been extinct by now, and they will have a hopefully promising future with any luck, though apparently Maserati sales are down again . Hopefully with time and profitability, Maserati and Alfa Romeo can once again begin to design and produce their own cars, though they will definitely be more corporate. I certainly hope we can see more from Maserati like the Alfieri and less like the new Ghibli and Quadroporte whose designs are disappointing in my opinion. I’m honestly not completely happy that Ferrari is now designing cars completely in-house instead of working with Pininfarina and I will miss seeing the Pininfarina badges on Ferraris. It breaks an almost 60 year tradition, but we can’t change the reality of the modern world. Perhaps I am more optimistic than you as I see more hope for the Italian brands now than in the last 30 years. Best Clyde P.S. This may be off topic, but I am also glad to see that Zagato and Touring Superleggera are still functioning design houses even if its in exclusive small volume quantities. Just as I was sad to see Pininfarina face bankruptcy and ownership by Indian interests at least they are still alive. Look what happened to Bertone (tragic) and even Italdesign Giugiaro are owned by VW and he has now resigned. Where is Ghia (and Frau) since they were purchased by Ford?
Clyde, Unfortunately or for lucky you have more reasons ... Perhaps i'm a man of other times ... and i need to modernize ... but soft ! haha Best Fabio p.s.: I hope at your home the things are so good, these is most important!
Unfortinately it seems that the formula for ease of manufacturing and a nice profit margin, is to share as many components as possible within the parent company, even sharing components between companies.
Dear Fabio, I understand completely but its a new year very soon and I am trying to be optimistic. Best Clyde P.S. At home sometimes good and sometimes not so good, but that's life. We always must continue to hope for the best.
Having owned cars of various brands for close to 40 years, what I have started to dislike immensely is how bland and generic most cars have become. I have been thinking that todays cars are designed to be driven by the most unskilled, uninterested sort of a driver. Perfect, forgiving road handling, steering without any feel or feedback from the road and tyres, engines with a forgiving flat torque curve, and so on. I think the risk is huge that Ferrari will start streamlining production by using generic components.
The cars I loved to drive: AR Spider -91 Nissan Sunny GTI -89 ( I think) Ford Consul GT 2.6 -72. ( German made Granada) Defenders, owned 5, made between -85 and -14 Jag SJ-R Porsche 993 a couple of them MB 190 2.6 Lada 1300 SAAB 900 -87 series 1 And now my 575. It is not the most fun of that lot to drive, but amongst the top. The rest - about 30 cats - crap. Generic skit. All made in Europe or USA. One memorable car was a BMW 530 I got ( after the Jag developed a serious electrical fault - car died several times while I was driving, including doing more than 230 km/h in France) It was so incredibly uninspiring and boring I sold it after 4 weeks. Almost fell asleep several times while driving.
Hopefully not, we already have that with Lamborghini. Though the Audi connection has made them reliable with great fit and finish, they have become generic machines with the possible exception of the Aventador SV. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good old days��! That's while I'll stay with my Maranello as long as possible..... Happy new year to everybody in the chat - and a lot of fun with your cars in 2016! Saluti, Jürgen
Thanks Jurgen and a very Happy and Healthy New Year to you and everyone on FerrariChat as well. Cheers, Clyde Image Unavailable, Please Login
But it seems quite a few Lambos have turned to a grill? But I know what you mean. Having a quality parent brand behind you can improve the product. If Ferrari goes that way I hope the new owner does not remove the joy of driving.
Ferrari is actually going the opposite way. Having previously been 90% owned directly by FIAT, it is floating 10% of its value initially on the NYSE. Piero Ferrari and the Ferrari family will retain 10%, while the Agnelli family heirs will ultimately retain another 40% I believe, and the remaining 40% will be floated on the Milano Italiano Borsa. Update - Not sure how this all works but I just read that FCA will actually be floating the remaining 80% (after the 10% already on the NYSE and the 10% retained by Piero Ferrari and the Ferrari family), but somehow the Agnelli heirs will control 50% of the voting rights while Piero Ferrari only controls 10%, and the remainder will be controlled by outside public investors from the Milano Borsa and the NYSE.
Very good article at Cavallino.com on Ferrari's future: Some Indications on Ferrari?s Future | Cavallino - The Journal of Ferrari History
It's not just Prosy, or Prosecco but one of the best (at least some of them....) available in Italy, they are imho on the same level as Champagner. Different taste but very enjoyable and for some occasions I prefer them to their french counterparts..... Hmmm, the Lambos, difficult theme, in the past, they where good looking but havn't worked like a car should (....even a supercar). Now, they are reliable, still special and with a different appearance than an Audi, Made in Italy by italians but with attention to details. If you ever have restored a Lambo of the 70th you really know what handcrafted and built means... Sure, they lost some "character" due to this transformation, but the brand still exists and is doing better than ever. Let's hope, the transformation of Ferrari by Fiat in the same direction will be as successful. But I have some doubt's regarding that. There are imho some technology differences between both brands.... That's one of my regrets, all the companies overtaken by manufacturers like Audi, Ford, BMW or Mercedes participated technically from their new owners, regarding the technics, production methods and quality they where ahead of their new acquisitions. So finally, the question appears to me - in which category of motoring is Fiat so outstanding, that a brand like Ferrari can participate of the new internal company construct. Ideas? Saluti, Jürgen
Jurgen I disagree with some of what you have written. First of all, I think Lamborghini has lost much of its character, not just some. Lamborghini's of the past were not accused of understeering beasts to the point where road testers degrade their performance relative to other exotics. They are definitely much more reliable though some would say soulless. Of course this is a matter of opinion so I don't think my opinion is necessarily correct, but when testers like Chris Harris and Steve Sutcliffe complain about their handling and electronic intervention (and not as much about other marques) there has to be something there. At the same time, when it comes to Ferrari, I don't think its fair to consider Fiat's influence over Ferrari only in its present context. There is no question that had Fiat not invested in Ferrari in 1969 there would be no Ferrari today as it was headed for bankruptcy and Enzo knew it (that's why he played Ford until he was able to coerce Fiat into the terms he wanted). Furthermore, had Fiat not brought back Luca Di Montezemolo in 1991 to turn around Ferrari's fortunes, re-establish it as a force in F1 and to oversee the production side, then Ferrari may not have lasted either and would have continued to deteriorate in quality and stature. Perhaps you don't remember Ferrari 80's mistakes like the underpowered Mondial or the fact that even Luca Di Montezemolo himself was highly critical of Ferrari quality upon his return after purchasing a 348? So there is no question that Ferrari has benefitted from the security blanket of Fiat in years past. Having said that, in recent years Ferrari has not only become Fiat's cash cow (more so now with the divestiture and listings on the NYSE and Milano Borsa), but has led Fiat and much of the world's automakers when it comes to technology, so you could correctly say that it is Fiat who have gained from Ferrari instead of vice versa. It was Ferrari under Luca Di Montezemolo's tutelage that originally turned Maserati around from a producer of those laughable Bi-Turbos to cars of quality before handing it back to Fiat control. It was Ferrari who developed the F1 transmission from F1 to road cars (whether you love it or hate it), and it was Ferrari who pioneered the e-dif that everyone and his brother is now copying. Fortunately Fiat also allowed Ferrari to shop for parts outside the organization so that they were able to acquire GM's Dephi division's magneto-rheological shock absorbers and make better use of them than GM has themselves (its surprising that FCA's Chrysler Mopar division has not yet attempted to copy them). Ferrari's fit and finish are among the best in the business now and certainly much better than even when my 575 was produced. So though at present there is not much to worry about with respect to Ferrari's health and product line, without Fiat's continued security blanket which it will no longer have now that Marchionne is sucking it dry in order to finance Maserati and Alfa Romeo through the spin off, there should be some concern about whether Ferrari can continue to perform at its present level into the future in F1 and on the production car side. I really don't want to see Ferrari become a has been resting on its past laurels like Aston Martin (not that there is anything wrong Aston Martins, but as an independent company there is no question that they have fallen behind Ferrari, Lamborghini, McClaren and Porsche technologically and that is why they recently had to sign a technology sharing agreement with Mercedes). Clyde
I am no one to speak but how funny would it be if Ford ends up buying the company. Come talk to me in a few years. Just my hunch and just what I see, got some money on it too. Hope I'm right , but I've been wrong before. Steve in NY
I am off topic, sorry! I did not imply that Prosecco is not as good as Champagne, sorry for the misunderstandong! Champagne in general is overhyped and overpriced, imho. I had some fabulous Sekt both in Germany and Austria. Some fabulous Prosecco in Italy. Of course, some fabulous Champagne too! And some really bad ones too! It is truly fitting that Ferrari allows an Italian maker to use its name.
