With no shortage of people willing to pay $400-500K for an aventador, $300-400K for a 458, and around $280K for a 12C. I'd a imagine a will spec'd car is going to be about $300K for a coupe. I remember the LP560 demo having an MSRP of $260K with a moderate spec, so naturally I expect higher. All exotic prices have gone way up in the last few years.
Something tells me those days are over. A base F12 is $315K and it has about 20 grand in stuff that would cost you as options on a 458. If it were Apples to Apples, the F12 would be $295K. There's too many of these super cars in the market. You've got the Mac as an alternative today and most are selling new under MSRP. You've got Mercedes and Audi making reasonable alternatives at lower prices. You've got Honda about to re-enter the market. Lambo can't just ask whatever they want. They need to compete in this ever growing crowded market.
Thats what is listed on Lamborghini website for the rear wheel drive version. I have read a prediction of 0-60 time of 3.2 seconds, that is 458 times basically. So I would like to know how a car that has all wheel drive and weighs 300 pounds less than a 458 too and has more horsepower can only accomplish the same 0-60 time. I think the replacement is not going to be 2800 pounds which is 300 pounds less not unless they are going to have a carbon tub. Lets face it, the base version that is coming out will be no quicker than a 458 and slower than the speciale.
And you can get an FF for less than $300K with the V12 and outfitted for cross country trips for four, also with options you have to pay for in a 458. I just ordered one for that purpose and felt compelled to add only a few options for a total of $18K. Further to the market situation, were it not for the Asian market, the supercar market would be dead in the water. Why? For one thing opportunities in the West are not what they were... economic doldrums are not making many new multi millionaires. There are a lot of birds in the supercar nest right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see a shake out.
From what I can see it looks like a very nice rendition of the Lamborghini theme. The front fascia is still reminiscent of the Speciale but looks much better here than on the more rounded 458.
Nah, what's happening is that manufacturers are realizing the rich people are rich. Depreciation will just increase. The new norm will become $150K haircut after 5-6 years. When you look at it like that, it's not even that bad. What's the average new Ferrari owner bring in per year? $200-300K minimum? The price to play will merely increase and most people will accept it. What's half a year's income for 5-6 years of ownership? I think just about every owner could live with that.
On the contrary, the rich have most likely gotten richer. Stocks are back at all-time highs. Those who were buying the last few years made everything back and big gains on their purchases throughout. Money is still very cheap.
A 911 Turbo S is heavy and has less power, and even that has higher performance than a 458. It's safe to say the Gallardo is going to be much better than the 458 in all metrics.
What you don't see is that there is a really limited market for these. Just ask McLaren. They aren't even close to their numbers. If Ferrari has just 300 people in the US who say "no thanks" to a 458, that's a 10% decrease in sales There are more people riding on one 757 flight from New York to Chicago than that. It's statiscally nothing. This market is razor thin and that means a small disruption to any market can have a big effect on sales.
I won't dispute that the existing rich are doing very well. What is not happening is the generation of new rich -- the progression of middle and lower class folks to wealth. The fact is that opportunities in the West are now limited in a way that has not happened before. Ferrari for one knows this. CEO Luca Di Montezemolo has said publicly that the US is a "mature" market. He would not say this if the population of potential customers were expanding. And as the mayor points out, these are not big markets Demographically and economically the opportunities are in Asia. At least for now.
A turbo S outperforms on a straight like because of the all wheel drive. Have it race from a roll and I doubt it would beat a 458. Its heavier and loses more power to the wheels because of the all wheel drive system. All wheel drive cars can have unbelievable 0-60 times and quarter mile time because of the grip they get. How does a 0-60 time of 3.2 with an all wheel drive car, which is the same as the 458 any better or faster in all metrics? I would bet the car is no better when it comes out. The replacement for the 458 is going to make the Cabrera look slow. The speciale would do circles around it. The speciale as a 3.1 0-62 which would translate to probable a sub 3 0-60 time. I think Lamborghini is matching the 458 line up maybe and Ferrari is going to wave good bye to Lamborghini with the replacement.
I'm sorry to say it but you guys sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons sitting around saying "the new generation isn't doing as well as the old generation" yet nothing could be further from the truth. The service economy is minting millionaires and billionaires at faster pace than ever before and also in countries that never before had large numbers of these types of consumers with the freedom to spend their money on luxury vehicles. That's why you're seeing luxury car companies expand their product lines without taking even the slightest hit. Ferrari and Porsche's profits are beating records year after year. McLaren, whom some people here like to disparage, is doing just fine and expects to break even this year after selling out all 375 $1M+ P1s. Young people are standing in line to buy these cars. The fact that some of you are getting tired of the game doesn't mean there aren't a steady pace of players standing in line for their turn.
Seriously. How do you become a millionaire in the service area? Hire thousands of people? I wish it were so easy. The new generation is going to have it 10 times harder than the old. The biggest growth area in the US is fast food. Welcome to your world. There's three places where you can do really, really well selling service 1) New York City (financial), 2) Silicon Valley (electronics), 3) Washington DC (lobbying). Everywhere else is broke city.
By definition, that doesn't really make sense. The middle-class isn't supposed to become rich. That's why it's called the middle-class. The progression isn't supposed to be from poor to rich, it's supposed to be from poor to a higher quality of life. People are supposed to progress to having better standards of living, not becoming rich. It's also never been easier for young people to get rich. 20 and 30 year old are becoming filthy rich practically overnight these days. So many opportunities now than before. I wouldn't be surprised if the average age of millionaires is decreasing. All that estate money has to trickle down to someone as well. If Ferrari is having trouble selling to the new rich, it's because they don't understand them. The issue is not that there isn't enough rich people, it's that old rich are being replaced by new rich people who are totally different. You can't sell to a whole bunch of millionaire tech nerds like you can 50 year old dudes who remember vintage Ferrari races.
The Internet goes everywhere. Anyone with a good idea can become wealthy very quickly. Snapchat anyone? 23 year old turns down $3B buyout from Facebook for what is more or less just a new take on sending messages. Average salary for an intern at major tech companies is like $100K. Lots make much more. If you have a computer and the Internet, you have about a 1000x better chance of getting rich than you did when you were growing up.
They understand them. But again you have to remember they only sell about 7,000 cars a year for the entire world. That's incredibly small. A few people changing their minds one way or the other makes drastic sales swings. When the 308 came out, it was a car a doctor or lawyer could afford to drive everyday. How many doctors and lawyers can drive a 458 everyday today or think owning one is worth that amount of cash? Or, would want to own one given people's attitudes today? How many threads do we see of people asking if it's OK to drive their car to work or tell their employees or co-workers they have one? What's all the anxiety for? We know what it's for unfortunately. What was sold for about 35K is now selling for 300 K after a difference of 20 years. That's a much smaller market than it used to be.
Sorry I should have probably said the internet economy. But ultimately YouTube, Amazon, QQ, iTunes, Zynga, Twitch, Machinima.com, are service economies. They exist to provide streams of content to consumers and there are new millionaires minted every day among the companies and people providing the content there - especially in video, live streams, apps and games. Much of that content are through "services". For example a lot of video games are now what they call game-as-a-service and not only are the game makers minting millionaires as massive numbers of people buy things in "micro transactions" but the players themselves are starting YouTube channels and Twitch streams filled with content that are attracting huge numners of followers and generating huge advertising revenues. Maybe people enchanted by the Dino-era find this hard to understand but trust me it's real. Ask your kids and grand kids In the meantime you're here on the Internet posting on a forum that serves a market of 7,000 customers a year of which maybe a few hundred are active posters. This isn't exactly where the action is. Imagine how much advertising revenue is being generated by forums that serve games with 30 million active players and YouTube channels with hundreds of thousands of viewers. Do you like Chris Harris? Do you realize how he makes money? YouTube. YouTube alone is probably minting more millionaires per year than were created in the entire year most of us were born . There are more millionaires in the world now than ever before - in fact there are nearly 14 million millionaires and that number grew by 1.2 million from 2012 to 2013. So I don't think Ferrari is in danger of not being able to sell their 7,000 cars per year anytime soon. The reason there are so many more expensive sports car models than ever before is because there are so many more potential customers than ever before. See: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/world-more-millionaires-234922509.html
One of you ballers need to define "millionaire" so this thread can make sense. The new "big money" is 100 million...with the tens of millions left far behind. One of the reasons that the internet has manufactured all those money brats is because that is where they congregate and is virtually the only quick-investment low-asset place that can produce value prior to profits.
Mmmmmm... no. Trust me you don't. You need knowledge, training, experience, and creativity to go with that computer, along with a bit of luck that no one has been there before you, going the same time as you, or is right behind you about to run you over. Anyone bought a Nokia phone lately? Or made a Myspace page? You also most likely need funding because these wonderful things aren't free or cheap to do. The computer creates opportunities and it also takes them away. It's a wash. 99% of the '49'ers in the California gold rush lost money mining for gold. It's no different in the software business. And, as I said, that's great if you live in the bay area or New York or Washington DC. Anywhere else... poverty row in the service business. The cost of labor is rising, the regulations are increasing, the performance, education and training of employees worsening. I don't see any of that changing for the better anytime soon The one thing I know about the service business.... you're only as good as your employees.
I don't think you are talking about the same service industry. Service as in web services and software. All you need to be able to do is program. You can learn that yourself. The best developers I know were learning to program when they were in high school, on their own time. It's even easier nowadays because you have access to vast amount of resources online. A computer, the internet, and some time to learn/create is all you need. Sure, you need a good idea and a bit of luck, but those cost nothing and you need those no matter what industry you are looking at. When I say it's never been easier, I say it with respect to the barriers for entry. In 1980, not only did you need a good idea and some luck, but you also probably needed some significant capital, tangible assets, undertaking of a lot of risk, and decent amount of time. Tell me, when you were growing up, what kind of business could you start at 19 or 20 that could attract hundreds of millions of users and customers within a year or two and working out of a bedroom?
I would think the same thing from hearing the rich guys talk at our C&C, as they pull up in a new car 2 or 3 times a year. But according to a report on cnbc things are booming for the rich "America may have a dysfunctional political system, but it continues to lead the world in significant wealth creation. A new report from Credit Suisse shows that 1.7 million of the 1.8 million millionaires added to the ranks in the past year were created in the U.S., which now boasts 13.2 million millionaires. Rising stock markets, the housing rebound and a broader increase in asset values have fueled the surge."
Rich people with the financial potential to buy those super-cars will always exist. The question is: are they willing to buy these super cars also in the future? And what are the social and political conditions for the purchase of these cars? IMO the super-car industry is moving in a circle, in the meantime the products differences are very small. 0-100km/h in 3.2 or 3.0 seconds, come on, this is ridiculous. Discussions regarding Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren results in a religious war. In parallel to these discussions, I see a generation growing up with very different interests, they do not seem to be interested in our prestige thinking and behavior. And if someone wants to buy such a conspicuous car it needs more and more courage to drive this car in public. The social pressure (envy) gets higher and higher. The road traffic is getting denser and denser, the chance to be caught up with 700 hp in traffic jams is always higher. Private racing events? It is increasingly difficult to organize such events. I'm really curious how the supercar scene will look like in 20 years, if this industry just continues to turn on to the "power-screw".
