I bought my lift from Alpha-Omega. I found they had the best prices, and the service was good. http://www.alphaomegaeq.com/index.html Be aware that when the lift arrives you have to have a good size forklift available to take it off the freight truck. If you decide to install it yourself you'll need about a half-dozen burly and cooperative friends. You can bribe them by offering to let them use the lift. Regarding the two post lifts (at least on the Bend-Pak which I have) the lifting is actually done by Hydraulic cylinders. All the cables do is synchronize the two arms so they lift at the same rate. After we installed it, a friend brought over a 5 gallon barrel of John Deere Hydraulic fluid and said it was the best, so we poured it in, and the lift went up... but it wouldn't come down. We figured there must have been some Viagra in that hydraulic fluid. I drained it all out and replaced it with Dexron, and it worked fine. Now if anybody needs some hudraulic fluid with the Viagra supplement in it...
1) 4x12s beams aren't exactly planks 2) The lift arms would still be fully under the car just below the normal lift points, so 'plank' failure would just let it sag down onto the normal lift points, + some extra thickness for the attachment for the 4x12s. However, if you still don't trust wood, just use the same kind of rails that the 4-post & old fashioned drive-on center cylinder lifts used. BTW, I've had my 308 on my 2-post lift w/the wheels dangling for a month or 2 at a time when a project took a lot longer than I intended. Seems to happen about once/year. No suspension problems so far. Not recommending it per se, just a data point.
Mike, another good thing about www.teamlift.com is that they deliever the lift to the installer who then brings it with him to install. That way you don't have to worry about a fork lift or messing with the heavy thing at all.
I just can't see any problems arrising from storing a car with the suspension hanging. None. I would argue it's actually easier on the spring, shock, wheel bearings, and keeps the tires from flat spotting from sitting there. The only thing I could see as a potential problem would be the CV boot in tension if the shock has a lot of droop. Only the old cars have that and most have solid rear axles. The best way to store a shock absorber on the shelf is with no load in the first place and has less pressure on the seals. But it makes no difference on older Koni shocks as they are fine compressed or in extension. So it has to go to the frame rail. I'd personally rather it be there then have the potential to roll off. If your car is rusty, then maybe you have a problem. I own 3 assymetric lifts and have a 4 post coming. The ONLY reason I am getting the 4 post is it can be moved around with castors. BTW, Werther, without a doubt, makes the best most expensive lifts in the business.......it's Itallian too ;-) World Headquarters: WERTHER Int; L srl Via Brunelleschi, 12 - 42040 Cade (RE) - Italy Tel: +39 522 9431 Fax: +39 522 941997 website: http://www.werther.com D
I will be breaking ground in two weeks on my shop and will be installing a four post, drive on by www.autolifters.com., model #M6. Commercial grade, made in America. Jacking beams, drip trays and a caster kit so it can be moved around from bay to bay. DJ
We use Rotary twin post asymmetrical lifts, always with wood blocks to protect the finish and shape of the frame.
Yea, good point. With some of the horrid wood they pass off as "premium" at Home Depot I would suggest staying away from wood unless it is on the dash of your BMW.
Yea, they told me that. They have grandfathered me into the sale price. I will get a SS7000 end of February...well, I will pay for it at the end of February and get it 3 or 4 weeks later. Seems they have a massive backlog. That is the only negative I have seen with them so far - I prefer to pay upon satisfactory delivery.
I have been researching lifts because I have to pull the engine on my Mondial T for a major. I prefer a four post because outside of this major it will be used as a storage lift. Plus my garage is only 20x22 (2 - car) and I don't want the big post between the two cars on the bottom with the 2-post option. However, I can not find a four post with enough clearance between the rails to get the engine out. There are some really wide 12,000lb four post lifts that are about 10' wide with adjustable ramps. That defeats the purpose of getting a small storage lift that I can also use to do this engine out service. In talking to lift companies one told me I could get a castor kit and pull the car on from the side (perpendicular) to the rails and put the front tires on one side and block the other side to the frame just behind the rear door. This would give me complete access to the rear to pull the engine. I am worried about weight distribution and raising the car with that much weight hanging off one side of the ramp. Can someone clarify if this is a reasonable approach because I would have purchased one months ago if it were not for this concern... Thanks!!!
I am looking at buy a lift also. I definitely want a four post because I don't want to block the walk way between the 2 cars in my 2 car garage with the big post on the 2 post. However, I can not find one that the will allow the engine to come down between the ramps on my Mondial T which is due for a major engine out service. One manufacture told me I could pull the car on to the lift perpendicular with the front wheels on one ramp and block the chasis to the second rail just behind the rear door. Seems like a reasonable approach but I am concerned having that much weight off of one side of the lift. Does anyone have any experience with this approach? I gues worst case I could take off the casters and temporaily bolt the side of the lift to the floor that the front of the car is on? This has been the only thing delaying my lift purchase... Thanks in advance...
Sorry for the duplicate post... The original post did not show up until I posted the second response... must have been in my internet browser cache or something...
The #1 problem I've seen come out of it is the suspension bushings (I'm speaking in general terms, not fcars). A vast majority of cars have rubber bushings bonded to inner and outer metal sleeves; the assembly is press fit into the control arm. A mechanic worth his salt will always tighten down the suspension at the 'normal load' when a vehicle is driven. Just a note--I've seen time and time again where someone will torque a spanking new suspension down while it's hanging on the rack. Sacrilege! When you store a vehicle for the winter in such a position you're basically twisting the entire bushing assembly for the winter. What you end up getting is sloppy handling--quick. The bushings begin to disintegrate rather quickly and leave you wandering all over your lane. Not that this is an expensive repair, just annoying as hell. Of course your vehicle may have bearings, poly, aluminum or delrin units that aren't susceptible to this problem. Other than that you're storing parts in a position they aren't normally in; there's going to be surfaces exposed to an environment that normally would not be. Tie rod ends don't sit in their cups in the usual position, ball joints, cv joints--they all are oriented in a position the would otherwise never see in their life for more than maintenance on a lift. Of course this could be completely 100% wrong. YMMV. Just my 3 cents. -Jeff
Jeff, The 308 does indeed have metal sleeved rubber bushings as you've described. Your points are consistent with many prior posts over the past several years (see the archives) that recommend against letting the wheels dangle. Interesting question: If doing long drawn-out repairs, how long can you safely leave a car on a lift w/o damaging the rubber bushing? O(days)? O(weeks)? O(months)? Anyone have any real data? Hmm, anyone come up with a way of compressing the suspension? eg: Spring compressors on all for springs?
Now I'm really confused here. Bolts go through a bushing that is fixed in the a-arm. But the bolts are only there as a pivoting connection point, not fixed. There are thrust washers on both sides that come in contact with a steel bushing insided of the rubber that also has a steel cartridge that is pressed into the arm. The bushing is "designed" to allow the suspension arm to rotate fully at this pivot point with the shocks under compression and rebound and take the jarring out thus dampening out the vibration. Race cars don't have bushings, they have spherical bearings. When they bind up, the suspension is not working....kinda like driving a buck board buggy. Same thing goes true with rubber, you just have less response as the reaction of the forces is somewhat delayed as the bushing material "gives". This is the reason why you put in harder bushings on a road car....to give the car better response and feel. Take a Ferrari suspension bushing compared to a Cadilac's. The durometer of the Cadilac will be far softer. Any bushing, including swaybar, that is bound up when you lift the car is not properly lubricated nor is working properly. Swaybar bushings are also designed to allow the sway bar to pivot at that point. When in a turn, the car transfers weight to the outside wheel. At the same time the inside wheel tends to lose force. However, weight is tranferred via the sway bar to counter act these forces and keep the tire contact patch on the ground. I recommend reading "all" books written by the late great Carrol Smith and study how suspensions work. I also have to think Ferrari engineers would design a suspension when in full droop does not go into a bind. IF they did, we would all be breaking ball joints. So I just don't get your point here. Frankly, a "good mechanic" will apply anti-seize to the shank of the bolt so the assemblies can rotate as well as grease or anti-sieze sway bar and other bushings etc. Prove to me that tightening your suspension with the arms not in load is improper and I'll show you that "every" single pro race mechanic is doing it wrong too. The basic physics does not support one way or the other as long as the bushing, bolts, thrust washers, boots are installed properly and tightened to the correct torque. It should not matter. Should I torque rod bolts when the gas is expanding in the combustion chamber and applying load to the top of the piston? Now aligning suspension in droop doesn't fly. Obviously you check things out at proper ride height as well as preload on swaybars when performing corner balance "if" they have adjustable droplinks. But for the life of me, I've never heard in my years as a pro race mechanic or owning a Ferrari/Porsche shop anything of the sort. Needless to say, a majority of the fasteners for the suspension can not be properly torque while the car is sitting on the ground in the first place as there is not room to get a wrench nor is there a way to apply the amount of torque needed. When aligning cars, we do full corner weights in conjunction at our shop. It is a real ***** to get the fasteners tight when adjusting toe, caster, camber, ride height. We always tighten them as best we can and then lift the car up on the rack and tighten them all to proper torque. It's the only way to do the job right. Please enlighten me, maybe you can teach and old dog new tricks. Or am I just being stupid? D
After speaking with Frank Parker I ordered a SS7000 from Teamlift the first week of January. Should be installed early February. I can better utilize a 4 post than a 2 post. What are the pros and cons regarding bolting the posts to the concrete? Is it really that much more stable. Teamlift seems recommending not to do so as you can move it later and says you really do not have to but I believe that Frank did bolt his in. Anybody have some information? Thanks, Drew
Drew, when I get mine I am getting it with casters too. Clearly, if the lift would be unstable they would not offer this option. It will be nice to be able to move the lift when needed and to literally move the lift to another house (with a Hella bigger garage) when I move. It would likely be easy to shoot Hilti bolts into your concrete to mount the lift though. We are talking low labor time if the installer has a Hilti shooter and a little experience. I will also be having mine built by the factory's subcontractor. Will likely get one in early March (delivered).
I had my lift bolted to the floor for security. The installer drilled the holes and bolted it down for me. I could still take it with ,me if I decide to move and just patch the bolt holes. I just would not trust the casters alone as a car is a heavy thing to be suspended over my head. I also had a keyed switch wired in so the lift cannot be operated without the key. I did this because I have three small children that I didn't want playing with the lift while I was at work and injure or kill themselves.
fwiw, i recently tried to get info from the teamlift people. parkerfe seems very happy with them so they merited a sync. i have yet to be able to get detailed information from them beyond what is on their web site (which is underwhelming). they have a long/tall model (if you need to park an SUV under you need a long/tall), but i can't get any hard data from them on it. they told me what the lock points were on the units, but they clearly were wrong, and when pushed, suggested i call the factory and ask. methinks maybe they should lose the direct sales guys and spend the money on a web guy for a week note that they claim the math is "height of top car + height of bottom car + 4 inches". that's not correct - be careful buying based on this data! the correct math for EVERY storage lift manufacturer is as follows: (A) height of top car plus (B) height of the platform the top car sits on (usually 4-6 inches depending on the manufacturer) plus (C) the lock point of the lift that is just higher than the height of the bottom car. so if your bottom car is 57.5" high and they have lock points at 55" and 60", then it's 60". revolution (rotary) and eagle are my current front-runners. professional folks with full data available. without all the data on lock points and platform size, you could easily be six inches off in your math - and that might be a make-or-break deal. and make sure your garage slab can handle the weight! doody. PS: i'm NOT selling for these guys, but the revolution lifts come with keyed switches. it's kind of painfully obvious (to me at least) that any residential storage lift should have such a thing, imo.
Which 4 post storage unit with drip trays would work in the least height? I am only considering stacking a 44" car and a 51" car, but my garage ceiling is only 105" high. Is this too tight? Thanks, and Kind Regards, Chris
chris - it depends on the unit. some of them have really wacky lock points. a standard revolution lift could stack those cars in 104". a long/tall revolution lift could stack those cars in 99". an eagle lift could stack those cars in 103". a teamlift lift could stack those cars in 100" (purportedly). you can see how the lock points make things a bit messy - that's a 5" delta, which matters in these matters. WARNING: go verify all this yourself. if you buy a lift and it turns out my math was wrong i assume no responsibility, other than to compensate you a few bucks for a pint of guinness to cry in . doody.
Whatever you use bolt it in. This lift was moved from my old house. The protruding floor bolts were removed with a cut-off saw and spackled over.
Keep in mind that you have to lower the lift all the way down to engage the casters. You can't have the car up in the air and roll her around...that would likely buckle a leg under tortion. The casters mount to the cross bar and lift the legs off of the floor. There are some detailed pics in the manual online.
Just had a thought...bolting it down will wife proof it. Hmmmm...casters are quickly becoming a non option.
Intuitively one would think that this is the case; it is not. The bushing center sleeve AND the through-bolt do not rotate. The bolt tightens down sandwiching the center sleeve between the bolt head and the boss the suspension arm is mounted to. If you tighten down the suspension in a fully extended position the car will be 'bound up' (and god knows no one likes to be bound up!) at rest and just plain act funny under compression. Applying anti-sieze to the through bolt is a great idea to prevent the sleeve from corroding to the bolt, but there is no other benefit; in reality it isn't a moving part. The motion is provided only by the flexibility of the bushing material. Sway bars are a different animal--the bushings underneath the vehicle are subjected to far less stress and don't have center sleeves to my knowledge; I've never seen one front or rear that does. Unless of course you go the needle bearing route but then you end up replacing stuff every few hundred miles or so... -Jeff
