Gauging Interest in Forged 360 Challenge Wheels

Its not that they don't have the ability its that they dont want to for some reason (perhaps contractual) or being bothered that its actually worth their while. Big difference to 'cannot', more akin to 'will not'. Least not forget BBS actually make the majority of wheels on many European car brands or at least they have in the past in all sorts of different styles, sizes, offsets and so on that you could dream up...

 

I agree on the "will not" theory because they make the wheels for Porsche . Now go to the other wheels and you will see that they also make that design in the Porsche bolt pattern . I just want to see where this whole thing goes with them making Forged replicas . I know one thing....I will not be owning a set but curious to see if JoeTSI gets things going on his end .

Don't get me wrong , they are willing to make me wheels but i would have to purchase 10 sets or find 10 other people who want them right now . This is where i have a problem with their logic but hey.....who cares about what I think and what I want because i am just a nobody to BBS .

 

What would the probable cost be should they make the wheels assuming that there were sufficient buyers for the production run?

 

Why is this surprising? They probably made the design under contract to Ferrari so Ferrari owns the wheel design. That means they can't use that design as is and can't sell it without some specific resale agreement. In other words, they have to redesign in order to sell a wheel.

I am much more surprised that they are willing to even consider what is really a small run. They have engineering and liability for what amounts to peanuts in profit. Not to mention the opportunity cost of using your assets and resources to do low margin, low volume business.

 

well, the BBS CH wheels are a very close look to the challenge and CS wheels. If there's an agreement in place with Ferrari that says they can't use the old design without a resale agreement, they could probably just use the CH wheels as the basis for this group's buy, granted, all the other engineering costs to fit our bolt pattern would still apply

 

Who cares about a contract to Ferrari when you are making a separate wheel from the OEM . If you are not remaking the OEM wheel , what business it is of Ferrari to tell them what they can and can't do . How many wheels out there look identical to the next set ? For me , it was never about remaking the OEM set .

This is exactly where i have an issue with all this . How can you design a wheel for a certain vehicle and then , years later , say you don't have the ability to make a wheel for that same vehicle ? The engineering has already been done .

I understand i am not in the wheel making business so maybe someone can explain it to me in children's terminology on how it works because i fail to understand their logic .

Here is a picture of a 360 with the LM wheel . No way did they only make 1 set for this guy and that's it . Now i understand that those wheels are discontinued but what about their other designs ? I have already called numerous wheel companies about making me a new set and they all have the ability . I am 100% sure that they have not made 10 or more sets of the wheels i'm looking at for the 360 because i have done the research and i also asked them myself .

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Ok, I will try to make this simple. They can't make the same wheel (and they care) because they get sued and because it is unethical to intentionally violate a contract. In other words, it is bad business and you won't get any more business if you do that. Maybe you are ok with unethical behavior but most business' are not and most here on the board are not.

As for changing the wheel design: yes, they can do that BUT then the engineering isn't done as you say it is. If they make ANY change to a wheel design they need to do all of the analysis again.

Now combined these factors and tell me if it is good business for them to make a one off wheel:
- They have to use their resources to do the engineering again
- They will not be able to do the engineering for an alternative/new product because they are busy with this project
- They will need to make new molds made at a cost over $10,000 (yes forging takes a mold for the press)
- They will have to stop production of other products to change over the lines, produce the wheels, and change back
- They will have incurred the liability exposure for the one off wheel

You tell me why it is great business for them? AND if it is such great business why haven't you started a business making one off wheels? Need I go on with the list? The costs and risks for the are high with very small returns.

Some changes can be done easily. Drilling a different bolt pattern or changing the offset is fairly minor. Changing the spoke design, making things lighter/thinner, changing the materials, changing the forging process, etc. are all major changes and can have significant mechanical implications.

 

I forgot to respond to this part. The primary problem I see is you are making a lot of assumptions and not basing opinions on fact.

Did that owner of that car buy the wheels direct with proper fitment? Do you know for certain that they didn't buy wheels that aren't drilled and have them drilled? How about adjusting the offset? Point is you don't know how those wheels came to be on that car. You are making an assumption that the manufacturer provided a single set of wheels but you have no validation of that. The manufacturer probably didn't make 10 sets of that wheel and may well not have made 1 set that had proper fitment. Of course they will make a single set but it will cost you and the owner of that car may have paid the extra. You just don't know and a picture doesn't tell you anything about what happened.

 

Also, plenty of LM replica wheels on the market

 

1) I never said that i wanted them to make the same wheel as the OEM or to make a one off wheel as you claim so being ethical has nothing to do with this . I was asking them to take a wheel that they already make and drill out my bolt pattern and cut my offset . I am a 42 year old multiple business owner and i pride myself on good customer service and ethical behavior so you don't have to preach to me about what's right and what's wrong .

2) Just spoke to my contact at BBS and he said that BBS did in fact make wheels for the 5x108 on the 360 at one time , which is why you can google numerous 5x108 Ferraris with the LM wheel , but they stopped making them a few years after the model ended because of demand . So obviously , the owners of these cars did buy wheels with proper fitment . He also said that it basically comes down to BBS either wanting or not wanting to....and right now , due to high volumes , they do not want to .

I also asked him about them making Porsche OEM wheels and still making their aftermarket designs and he said that it comes down to Porsche not changing their chassis design for many years and that keeps the demand going . If Ferrari used the same chassis for many models , we wouldn't be having this discussion and i would already have a set of BBS on my car .

When it's all said and done , BBS will make the LM-Rs but i would have to have a multiple set order to make it happen . They said they would be willing to do it on a 6 set order now and not the full 10 set order like originally said , but that means i need 5 other people to share my interest also .

 

but not the LM-R .

closest i found was the Avante Garde F110 and it looks like i might be going that route .

 

What you posted this time makes sense and aligns with what I said but you do realize that this part directly contradicts your claim in post #31

 

BBS used to produce LMs in 5x108 fitment. There is, or was very recently, a set that fits the 360 for sale on eBay actually.

That being said, simply put, when Ferrari contracted BBS to build these wheels, they likely negotiated into the contract that they OWN that design, therefore, BBS can not produce this design to sell to somebody else. Very simple concept.

Not quite as easy as that. I doubt, to make a few thousand dollars, they would risk selling a set of wheels that they did not design from the beginning with proper testing and analysis. It's not a set of cheap cast wheels, where they're made in X Offset, and they shave it down to get higher offsets to sell.

If you're looking for an LM-R Esque wheel, AIMGAIN in Japan has a wheel that looks extremely similar to it. IIRC, they do custom widths and offsets, but not sure about if they're willing to make custom bolt pattersn.

Additionally, GMRWheels/VRWheels based in California, they may be able to cut you a wheel that looks very similar to an LM-R.

Or, what you can do is, find a set of LM-R faces, and then bring them to get custom Barreled/Lipped, and then have somebody re-drill them for you. Gotta pay to play, I've done with that LMs plenty of times. BBS Simply just doesn't make a lot ot fitment,s and if/when they do, they're usually not very aggressive, thus, you need to find your own ways to make them fit the way you want.

 

What part do you think contradicts my post ?

That ebay set still is available bit they are actually a little wider in the front than i need and they say "scuffs" so that cancels my interest .

I think everyone is taking my posts very different than what's intended . I was originally looking for the LM-R so i can't imagine Ferrari has any say on what BBS does with that . I do understand if i was trying to get a similar look to the OEM but that is not the case .

AIMGAIN does make a nice wheel but they don't make 19s in a 5x108 .

 

Are you being intentionally obtuse? I quoted two of your posts: one you said 'they didn't make to I asked them' and one where you said 'I asked them and they did make the wheels'. In both you asked them and in one they did and the other they didn't.

Maybe we do have your goal wrong. You started with a title and statement about "360 Challenge Wheels" but now you are saying you don't want the OEM look. So what is it exactly you are trying to do? Maybe you need to restate your specific goal because it is clear that we don't understand.

 

Correct....they do not make wheels now for our cars (the 360 bolt pattern) so i asked them if they would . I then called back to ask if they ever made wheels for our cars because you claimed i didn't know the answers 100% and that those 360 owners might have gone a different route and had them custom made but I was told that they did many years ago so that verifies my claim that they did , in fact , make them at one point in time .

Correct again that i said they didn't make 10 or more sets of the LM-Rs for our cars otherwise i would already have a set on my car .

JoeTSI and I have been working on the same idea based on 2 different wheel designs . He is trying to get the OEM wheel created in a lighter weight version and i was trying to get the LM-R version made . Unfortunately , you have not read my post about getting interest together for the LM-R design and that is why all this is very confusing for you . I was only commenting on this post because i knew what JoeTSI was involved in and was putting in my 2 cents on other comments here .

Here are my other threads regarding my efforts......not trying to hi-jack this thread but want people that don't know , to know where all my comments are coming from and not think i'm being "obtuse"

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/bbs-lm-r-wheels.562249/

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/update-on-bbs-making-wheels-for-us.564258/

 

At least you got them to the investigation point of this journey . Hopefully it works out for you guys !

 

Thank you for following up for us, Joe!

This is starting to look promising!

 

9.5 in the front fits perfectly fine, even with a 235/35/19.

Scuffs...I recall talking to the seller before, he sent some photos, didn't seem that bad. Nothing a full refinish wouldn't be able to fix IMO.

But, if you're set on a set of LM-Rs, you can find a set of 5x114.3, and have them re-drilled to your liking. Shouldn't be too big of an issue.

They make a 20x9.5 +40 and 20x11 +20, both of which, would fit the 360 I believe if you redrilled. Actually be pretty good fitment I believe. Rears, you could probably shave off 5MM off the backpad if you don't want it as aggressive.

 

any updates on this project?

 

What did ever happen to this ?

 

Bump....because i need to know

 

BBS use to drill 5x108 but they don’t anymore (heavily focused on M and P-cars now?) these wheels can be rebuilt and could’ve started it’s life with different width size and barrels for a different car.

My friend has a set of 19” BBS LMs on eBay built for a 550 FYI.

I contacted BBS for a set of LM-RS or E88’s but they’re just not interested in building a custom set.

FYI, 19” BBS barrels do not clear carbon brakes.