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Genealogy of the F- Family (please teach me history)

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by urraco, Mar 1, 2004.

  1. urraco

    urraco Formula Junior

    Feb 18, 2004
    490
    Mexiko
    Full Name:
    Nitram
    Now I'm curious about the cars prior to my birth , I hope you Ferraristas help me out finding the origins of the 3 Ferrari family for example : The 8 cylinder family which is currently the 360 Modena whose predecessor was the 355 and before it was 348,328,308 and so on....(now you tell me what was before the 308...) and the same goes for the 12 cylinder family which currently is the 575 Maranello which followes the Testarossa family right? what was before and what years? I hope my message went thru. My last question is what family the 456 GT belongs to? who were their parents? and last what was the 1960's 250s? how many cars is the ferrari line uo at a time?
     
  2. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    As I am bored at work and waiting for a full Siebel 'get' and have time to kill, I will have a go ... but this is straight off the top of my head so expect a few mistakes ;):

    Ferrari (er, sort of road cars) started with the 166, v12 designed by Columbo.

    That engine grew into the 212, and eventually the 250 series (GT 2+2, SWB, GTO, etc.).

    Not long after the 166 was designed, Lampredi was commissioned to design a larger v12, this started another thread and I believe has linage with the Superfasts, etc. Many of his improvements were applied to the Columbo v12 (such as normal valve springs instead of hairpin, etc.).

    Thus we already have the Columbo and Lampredi engined cars.

    A few years later racing and road cars were separating fast, and Enzo was struggling for money to finance the increasing cost of motorsport.

    While nearly selling to Ford he eventually sold ROAD cars to FIAT.

    Around this time Ferrari designed a v6 engine required for F2 (or something) and for F2 he needed to make a lot of them for homologation. This is where FIAT steps in and FIAT made these engines, and thus the FIAT Dino (front engined) and Ferrari Dino (mid engined) were born. Thus starting the Dino series.

    FIAT/Ferrari then decided to enlarge the Dino into a 2+2 and the 308 GT4 was born. This car, like the 246 Dino was not originally badged as a Ferrari. Unfortunately this car did not sell as well as planned, and Pininfarina was commissioned to design the 308 GTB, strickly a 2 seater. Thus one could argue who did the better job, Bertone with the 2+2 GT4 or Pininfarina with the GTB. Anyway, the GTB sales were good and the 3 series line well and truly started.

    At the same time Ferrari had continued with front engined dinosaurs like the awesome Daytona (which itself was a large departure in looks from the 250 series, which is where it grew from via the 275, etc.). FIAT decided they needed to move forward and thus the 365 BB (Boxer) was born. Thus we have the Boxer/Testarossa linage started.

    The Boxer was not able to meet American emission (and possibly safety laws) and thus the MUCH softer Testarossa was born to increase sales in their largest market.

    The 308 grew into the 328, then the 348 and then onto the much better looking 355 IMO, and now the 360.

    The 308 GT4 grew into the Mondial ...

    The 365BB grew into the 512BB and then the Testarossa. Ferrari then realised that the 355 and Testarossa were very similar cars fighting in the same market and the 550 was born returning to the Daytona type GT cars, and leaving the sportscars to the Dino linage.

    Where did the 456 come from?

    Around the same time as the Daytona, Ferrari created the 365 GT/4 2+2, which was a continuation of the 250 GT 2+2 series. The 365 GT/4 2+2 was a front engined v12 that grew into the 412. I think the 456 grew from here, but is a little more advanced in having the gearbox which the differential in the rear of the car.

    Thus Ferrari have always had 2 lines of road cars:

    1. GT's
    2. 2+2's

    and then the Dino created a third line.

    Now how much did I get right?

    Pete
     
  3. urraco

    urraco Formula Junior

    Feb 18, 2004
    490
    Mexiko
    Full Name:
    Nitram
    I appreciate your time ...now I know a little bit more about this royal family car . I guees you are all right but now I have another question date or years when each family started to grow? especially the Dino & 512
     
  4. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Okay, from www.barchetta.cc:

    246 Dino

    The first mention a Dino 246 race car I could find is chassis 010 of 1966 which was a Dino 246 Tasman (other than 0008 a 156 F2 that was played with which became a 156 F1). Note: the F1 246 (front engined) of earlier times is a completely different animal ... as is probably this cars engine compared to a road 246 Dino, but I am trying to prove my F2 reference.

    As for the road car, the 206 GT Dino chassis 00102 was the first, made in 1967.

    The first 246 GT Dino was made in 1969 and chassis 00400.

    308 GT4's started in 1973 with chassis 07202

    Note the race car 206 S was also created in 1966, thus I think my F2 reference is incorrect and it was for the 206 S that this engine was created. Maybe there was a F2 of sportscars or something.

    512

    Apparently made from 1976 to 81, chassis's 19677 to 38487.

    512BBi

    Made from 1981 ro 84, chassis's 38121 to 52935.

    Interestingly the Mondial t Coupe was the only 2+2 from 1990 to 1994 when the 456 came out. This is when the Mondial stopped production. The 365/400/412 did over lap with the Mondial from 82 to 89, thus Ferrari produced 2 2+2 models at the same time!

    Pete
     
  5. Bryan

    Bryan Formula 3

    To elaborate on Pete's good summary.

    Early Ferrari history has never been really nailed down, so I would not bet the farm on the following being totally accurate.

    There were 125 and 159 engines before the 166, but with VERY limited production (some debate, but 2 of each is a common count) and in race cars only.

    The 166 engine was put into numerous road and race cars. Also, the relation between Ferrari and numerous body builders (carrozeria) was underway: Vignale, Touring, Pinin Farina, Ghia, Bertone, etc. This continued for some time until Ferrari finally established a single source relationship with Pinin Farina, now renamed Pininfarina.

    The first Lampredi engine was the 275S (3.3L) and was used in single-seater and GT race cars (much less distinction between road and GT race then). The 3.3L become 4.1L (340/342 designation) and then 4.5L (375 designation) in the course of one year (1950). The 4.1L and 4.5L engines showed up in several different bodies and are prized today in almost any form.

    In 1952, the 250 engine was designed (Colombo heritage) and many people consider this the initial point at which Ferrari moved from great car maker to legend. Production of the 3L engine over its lifetime increased total Ferrari car production by an order of magnitude.

    A host of 4 cylinder race cars were being built and campaigned (625, 735, 500, 750, etc). As with the V-12s at the time, the number designated the volume of a single cylinder, i.e. a 4 cylinder 750 had 3L total displacement. The names Mondial and Testa Rossa appeared for the first time. Finally, there were some 6 cylinder cars campaigned.

    Colombo and Lampredi engines were produced simultaneously for several years.

    The 250 GT Colombo-engined production road series began in 1956. The Lampredi-based engines continued as one-off road cars for all sorts of famous people, e.g. the 4.9L 410 Superamerica and Superfast.

    As Pete pointed out, Ferrari built production 4-seaters at this time, including the

    250 GT 2+2
    ..330 America (250 2+2 body with a 330 engine)
    .....330 GT 2+2 (double and single headlight series)
    .........365 GT 2+2 (the "Queen Mother")
    .............365 GTC4
    .................365 gt4 2+2
    .....................400 GT4 2+2 (first production automatic trans)
    .........................400i (first fuel injected production 4-seater)
    ...............................412i
    ....................................456 (fairly big gap from 412i to 456)
    ........................................456M
    ............................................612 Scaglietti

    The 365 GTC/4 came between the 250 GT 2+2 and the 365 GT4 2+2. In fact the latter car and the C4 have identical engines, but different body styles. The 365 GT4 2+2 / 400 / 412i have bodies that differ in small details only.

    The 2 seater series is more diverse and complex. but here's my best shot

    250 Short Wheelbase (SWB) and LWB (road / race cars)
    250 Cabriolet and California Spyder
    250 GT Berlinetta Lusso
    ....275 GTB, GTB4, GTB/c, NART Spyder
    ........330 GTC / GTS
    ...........365 GTC / GTS / California Spyder
    ...............365 GTB/4 (Daytona) and Spyder
    ...................365 BB, 512 BB, 512 BBi
    .......................Testarossa, 512 TR, 512M
    ..........................550 Maranello, 550M, 575M

    Supercar series
    ..288 GTO
    ......F40
    .........F50
    ............Enzo
     
  6. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,966
    San Marino, CA
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    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    I think that the first real "production" series were the 250 Europa and 375 America, introduced at the same time in 1953. Beginning with these cars, I've always seen the family lineages as follows:

    "Exclusive Luxury" cars:
    375 America (1953-55)
    410 Superamerica (1956-59)
    400 Superamerica (1960-64)
    500 Superfast (1964-66)
    365 California (1966-67)
    The end of the line for this series of magificent machines.

    "Gran Turismo" cars:
    250 Europa (1953-54)
    250 Europa GT (1954-55)
    250 Boano (1956-57)
    250 Ellena (1957-58)
    250 PF Coupe (1959-62)
    250 GT/L "Lusso" (1962-64)
    330 GTC (1965-68)
    365 GTC (1968-70)
    365 GTC/4 (1971-72)
    Even though the C/4 is (marginally) a 2+2, I see it as the last car in this series, rather than an integral step in the 2+2 line.

    2+2 cars:
    250 GTE (1960-63)
    330 America (1963)
    330 GT 2+2 (1963-68)
    365 GT 2+2 (1968-71)
    365 GT4 2+2 (1972-76)
    400 2+2 (1976-80)
    400i (1980-84)
    412 (1985-89)
    456 GT(A) (1992-97)
    456 M GT(A) (1998-03)
    612 Scaglietti (2004-Present)

    Berlinettas:
    250 TdF (1956-59) Including "interim" berlinetta
    250 SWB (1960-62)
    250 GTO (1962-64)
    250 LM (1964-65)
    275 GTB (1964-66)
    275 GTB/4 (1966-68)
    365 GTB/4 "Daytona" (1968-73)
    365 GT4 BB (1974-76)
    512 BB (1976-81)
    512 BBi (1982-84)
    Testarossa (1985-91)
    512 TR (1991-95)
    F512M(1995-96)
    550 Maranello (1996-01)
    575M Maranello (2002-Present)
    The GTO and LM models were primarily competition cars and don't really fit into this lineage of production models but, what the Hell? I put them in there anyway.

    6 and 8 Cylinder cars:
    206 GT Dino (1966-69)
    246 GT(S) Dino (1969-74)
    308 GTB/S and successors (1975-85)
    328 GTB/S (1986-89)
    348 tb and successors (1990-94)
    F355 all models (1995-99)
    360 Modena and successors (1999-Present)
    The 308 GT4 and Mondials obviously belong to this group, but are "oddball" models that don't fit directly into the lineage, having no direct successor or descendant, except for each other.

    Super Cars:
    288 GTO (1983-85)
    F40 (1988-91)
    F50 (1995-97)
    Enzo Ferrari (2002-03)


    Of course, along the way, there were Spyder, Spider, and Cabriolet versions of several of the above models.
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    Wayne,

    I think the 308 GT4 should really be the successor to the 246, and descendant of the 308 GTB, even though there is some overlap here.

    Production started in 1973 and finished in 1980, the Mondial would have then taken over.

    The 308 GTB did not start until 1975, and also the 246 was made until 1974 ... this looks like a demand thing to me, maybe they realised the GT4 early to see if it would catch on, like Ducati has done with the new 999 and 998.

    I must say I prefer the GT4 looks to the Mondial. Anyway I can see why they do not fit in perfectly, but surely the GT4 was intended to be the successor to the 246, but with more practicality in mind.

    From what I have read the GTB only came about because the GT4 flopped ...

    Pete
     
  8. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,977
    Do you think that Dino 308GT4´s commercial failure motivated them to badge the 308 as a Ferrari, instead of as Dino?

    The Ferrari 308GTB was a great success. Maybe if the 308GT4 had been a success we would have now a Dino 360 Modena.
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    Absolutely!

    Pete
     
  10. Bryan

    Bryan Formula 3

     

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