"go fast" chassis setup for your 308

Here's the link between dry/wet sump and suspension - dry sumps are run in a lot of race cars not just to improve oiling in high g-force setting, and to reduce friction losses, but also to be able to mount the engine lower (or, alternatively, lower the whole car). Without a wet sump pan, the engine (or the whole car) can usually be lowered a couple of inches - the limitation tends to next be the size of the flywheel/clutch, thus you see some very creative solutions with very small diameter flywheel/clutch packages.

However, there are some notable historical examples of teams going back to wet sump after running dry sumps because there's less to go wrong, and ultimately doing much better with the wet sump configuration.

 

Hi Grahame,

Yes, I am VERY pleased with my setup. Sorry for not replying any sooner, hadn't spotted your posting before.

Let's see if I can dig up my notes:

* QA-1 shocks and QA-1 springs.

Front
DR4855P
Spring
10-300

Back
DR5855P
Spring
12-300

This is good for a GTB/GTS, on the GT4, you'll need a 1" shock extension on the rear to keep the shock from topping out when going over a bump. You CAN run without it, but the extensions cost a few $ only and ever since I put that one in, all topping out problems are gone. Jim is running the same setup, by the way.

Setting the shocks to 10 with the 16" wheels will not work. Not on mine in any way. You'll be driving a basketball, where the car is dribbling over its tyres. You'll feel that soon enough. With a bit of effort you can re-adjust the shocks while they are in place, so just experiment with it. Just good fun and no big deal.

* My springs are QA-1 too, but others will work too, provided that they are the same diameter. I've had no issues with the QA-1's and they were very cheap (like $30 a piece if I am not mistaking).

I got my springs and shocks from [email protected]
410-796-8777, (Chassis Warehouse [[email protected]] is the same guy). Thanks Pizzaman Chris for the tip. Much cheaper there.

You'll need Verell's bushings to mate to the Ferrari's frame and bolt diameter.

You'll need Verell's "paperweights" at the front to clear the A-arms, or alternatively, grind away a bit from the A-arms.

* Poly suspension bushings from http://www.suspension.com/ferrari.htm . Quite frankly: the effect of this was not as profound as I had thought it would be. Guess my rubbers were still in decent shape. Where the shocks and springs completely changed the feel of the car, the bushings made a subtle difference only.

* Same goes for the uprated anti-roll bar (rear only). It's now a 19 mm if I am not mistaking. Bought at www.superformance.co.uk. They only have one version, so can't miss there.

* Indeed, the 16" 7"/ 8" rims, also from Superformance. I've have Pirelli P6000's and Bridgestone Potenza's on there. Go bridgestone. MASSIVE difference! I'm running the stock 205/55/16 and 225/50/16. My ex girlfriend had the 225/245 on her 328 and quite frankly, I didn't like the looks. Too much tire for the rims. But that's just personal opinion.

On the GT4 however, we DO have the issue of wheel offset on the fronts. The original GT4's were set a bit narrower. Going with the 7" Superformance wheels, you have two issues: 1: you're turning circle is even wider because the wheels will rub agains the front wheel well (I believe later GT4's have a dent there to prevent that, not sur), but 2: And this is a nasty one: under certain circumstances (steering wheel one turn to the left and left wheel raised on a speed bump or driveway), your tire can grab the lip of the fender and pull it out!!!!! I've had my fenders rolled to prevent this happening again, as it has cost me my paint. PAY ATTENTION!!! Roll that fender, and maybe try the suspension setup without a spring while it is on your lift to see if your wheels can grab.

I can't imagine wider tires doing you any good here....

* Wheel alignment is as stock on mine, that is: as stock on a 16". Ferrari has a service bulletin out there that says what it all should be with 16". It differs from 14"... I'd have to look that one up. No mods to any parts were needed for that, by the way

Hope this is of some use.

Take care,

Hans

 

Hi Hans,

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply. I have quite a bit to do, it seems. Anyway, thanks again - I'll post how I go.

Cheers,
Grahame

 

I had a great day at Thunderhill 4-15 - I didn't need to get out the tools

Hardware:
QA-1s w 400 front and 350 rear springs, Poly bushings.
225/40x18 Goodyear F1 DGS fr and 255/35x18 rear, 40 psi f/r- 7.5 front rim width, 8.75 rear.
22mm ft adjusted up one hole, 22mm rear on soft, rod end drop links.
Minimal toe, stock castor, -2 rear camber, -3/4 front, (limit of fork bolts)

I have been playing around with bars and settings, trying to get less understeer, without getting scary oversteer and the above set up does it. The car pushes a bit at low and high speed with large throttle and the tail eases out, (quite controllably) on trailing throttle, which also scrubbs off some speed. This can be a good thing if you are going in a bit too hot.

The Saner set uses a 25 mm front and 22mm rear. With my alighment and tire stagger, this is too much front bar. It pushes a lot.

The Saner bars are about an inch too narrow, which causes sufficient angularity to nearly bind the rod ends. Further, the skinny sleeves provided as spacers are prone to crushing and getting loose - not a good thing. I used 12 mm "safety washers" from Summit to retain the rod ends and provide for angular movement, then used a 14mm nut to space out the links to a vertical alignment. This set up can be thightened properly. I have yet to replace the lower shock bolt with a 12.9 longer bolt so i can correct the binding and poor alignment at the front.

With this set up, (and the slightly bigger brakes, i can catch a lot of the higher hp cars, particularly in the faster corners and when their brakes get hot at the end of the straights.

Now, it's time for some new rear tires, prbably Dunlop Direzionnales, so i can drive them to the track and be able to get some street miles from them.

All recommendations welcome.
chris
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WOW, those are some impressive brakes you've got there Chris!! Looks good!!!

I'm planning on putting 4-pot Brembo calipers up front (from a V6 Alfa Romeo 164) with 325 mm BMW discs. It will fit in a 16" wheel with well, a good 1/8" to spare

 

Hi Sean,

Sorry to hear about you getting ripped off by Saner.

If you are thinking about making some bars and using his old bars as a template, I have a couple of sugestions for improvement.

Make the bars Wider, both front and rear suffer misalignment, from being too narrow.

Improve the drop link hardware by providing safety washers, and if necessary, stronger spacers.

As you can see in the photos, the Saner bars have a pronounced tilt inward to the drop links and they attempt to correct the misalignment and insufficient bar width by installing very "thin" spacer sleevs, to allow for misalignment. They are so thin, i was affraid to tighten them much and lost one on the front after a track session.

I have noted your earlier photo showing a tapered spacer that appears to still allow some tilt to the drop link. I think it was yours, if wrong, please correct.

The washers used for the front spacers are certainly robust and allow for proper tightening but are not as strong as a solid spacer or nut.

I used them to set up my old 25mm front bar for Miketauson.

HTH,
chris
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Hi Sean,

No, i havn't reinforced the lower arms. Didn't you post a few photos of your efforts?? A repost would be cool.
I will be particularly mindfull of potential cracks.

How are the fronts holding up with the bigger bars??

Perhaps i could do some reinforcing and install beefed up forks with longer bolts to give me another degree negative.

thanks,
chris

 

Sean, with lowering the car i think ( i do not have hard data) that roll will be more due to the increased distance between RC and CoG.
Did you change the location of the lower pickup points of the lower wishbone to reduce that change in RC location? And did you change the position of your steering rack?

 

"Oh yeah ... one other thing is a dry sump will yield more power 'cause the pistons aren't pushing against the blowzy pressure"

Dry sumps don't make more power and the pistons push against exactly the same "pressure" regardless of what type of oiling system is used. Blowby is blowby and it affects an engine the same way regardless of the oiling system. As noted earlier, dry sumps are used to lower the CG or the car by lowering the engine and to help ensure the oil doesn't leave the pickup area in hard cornering. The system itself actually REDUCES effective engine HP because of the drag from the scavenge pump(s).

A properly baffled oil pan with the proper oil level will produce more power and do everything that a dry sump can do EXCEPT allow the engine to be lower to the ground. At no time does a wet sump engine "sling oil" around unless someone has overfilled the sump.

Reducing vacuum in the crankcase is a proven way to increase HP and aftermarket "pan evacuations systems" are used of this purpose. They are so effective that after shutting an engine down, you can hear hissing as the pressure in the crankcase equalizes. We ran them on drag cars for years. Also, they allow the use of lower tension piston rings which reduce friction loss in the engine. Dyno tests on big block US V8 motors showed around 10 HP gain with a pan evac alone. Lower tension rings + the pan would produce in the area of 30.

 

Good post Mike. Thank you! So in other words, don't ever allow your oil breater tube to vent anywhere other than in the intake as it was designed on these engines.

 

Forget that, just buy a good used 370Z or 2002 BMW M3. Cheaper, faster. Haha Rob.


I predict that owner prepped 308s are going to be the next owner prepped early 911-type car. The early 911 owner crowd has been doing this stuff for years and only now are Ferrari 308 guys sort of coming out of their shells in number and doing this stuff. A new new golden age, that or I'm massively optimistic.

 

Hi John,

Way back in the early 70s, i played with the 911, bars, wheels, konis, jetting the solexes, a small blastpack muffler & lots of autoXing.

Been playing with the 308, suspension, brakes, maintenance, cooling and better wheels and tires.

I have recently acqired my dads old 74 911 and doing bars, tires, oil leaks, cooler & thermostat. Next is the suspension bushings, then maybe better brakes

One of the realy great things about the porsche world is that there a ton of them out there and a lot of the guys develop better parts for the cars, Poly and lubed bronze suspension bushings, really adjustable anti roll bars, tons of wheel options and the sky is the limit with engine goodies

If i keep messing with this stuff, i will never be able to retire, not ever...but having lots of fun.

MASSIVELY SPUN,
chris
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!!! What a brilliant little 911. Perfect. Yes, the sky is indeed the limit to what people have or can do with them. It's crazy. I had a '86 for a while and sold it when I had my first 308 ride (had to have a 308 after that first ride, a carbureted one at that), but I will have another 911, an early one; and it will be stupidly awesome when I am done with it.

 

I'm actually hoping you are right. I'm more likely to modify a 355 or 360.

 

because i like a 308 better than a miata.

It all about passion, of all you should know that.

 

We've just returned from a week in Italy with 4 F360's, 2 F430's, a 458, a 456, a 328 and my 38-year-old GT4. Driving the cars in the mountains in anger, a major part of the thrill for me was that I could seriously keep up with this bunch, despite the age difference. Had I purchased an F355, that thrill would not have been there.

The Italian roads are not a racetrack (well, almost), but you get the analogy. What's the fun in walking down the known path of in this case a race-prepped Miata, when one can have loads more fun in squeezing the last drop of performance out of a 308??

(And after last week, where an F430 could not shake me off on that mountain road, his carbon ceramic brakes smelling and the owner trying real hard, please nobody dare telling again that a 308 is a slow car)

 

I suspect that story says more about the difference in driver skill than the capability of the car. A fast driver in a slow car can always lap faster than a slow driver in a fast car!

 

+ 328; I always suspected Hans to be some re-incarnation of the Flying Dutchman...ha!ha!

 

I guess we could roll up all the valve jobs and manifold replacements a 355 will require then Not to mention all the other nonsense that just 'happens'. And with 348s we'll have to figure on the gearbox going south at some time and having a lame gearchange action and very tricky on the limit handling with Ferrari styling that can at times be an acquired taste.




I thought long and hard before I decided to beef up my 308 and I did it because it is just a more fun car to drive, especially now that it has tons more power. And I know it is more robust than any 348/355 now. Not as quick on a track as a 355, but without a question quicker than a spec Miata. And the fun factor is just crazy.

 

Nope, he's quite a capable driver. It's more down to the fact that I can dive into blind corners faster because I have him 150 feet in front of me and can see what he is doing. What also helps is that this was downhill, where brakes (mine are uprated) and handling are more important than horsepower. But still. This to me was my most epic drive ever, which would not have been as much fun had I done it in a newer car. Which is exactly the point I am trying to make