Going to Use Different Oil in Dino, Comments?

Q1: If I go to my local every-day car mechanic's place he has cars in all the time with worn out engines. This means cam lobe failures, worn pistons/rings/cylinders, big and small end bearing failures, and knackered valves & guides. I would say that these could mainly be attributed to poor lubrication, and as Haas says, 90% of this occurs at startup & first minutes of running.

Q2: Yes I do. Of course different grades of oil are different with regard to viscosity. This is what Haas's main discussion is about. One of his main points is that we are using oils that are too thick at startup, especially in colder climates. It sounds like you haven't read his stuff....Give it a go, it's very interesting
Also synthetics are different to mineral (& vegetable oils are different again)

 

Only time I ever saw an oil related failure was when the owner failed to add oil at all. VW of some sort, belonged to my sister, ran out of oil in the first 3K miles of driving, engine seized, VW tried to claim it was her fault.

3K miles, basically no oil. Said she should have checked it at each fill up as the owner's manual stated.

Needless to say she got a new motor, on VW, after a short conversation with me.

So no, I've never seen an engine fail from a poor oil choice, and I guarantee I've not ALWAYS filled with what the doctor ordered. Figure 38 years of driving, minimum of 20K miles a year, so that 760,000 miles without a failure. Not including various and sundry company vehicles we've run over the years.

DM

 

Now as to gasoline.

Sunoco has a refinery near me. We have Sunoco gas stations, they use Sunoco trucks filled with their own gasoline.

I've also seen Lukoil trucks, but not EXXON or Amoco. BP in our area has it's own fleet.

None of that, except for Sunoco, guarantees anything in my mind.

 

We see logo'd delivery trucks all the time...must have something to do with all those flares on the east side of town.....

But also agree independents play a big role, across the country.....

 

Tasman, in fact, I have read his tutorial on engine oil, and did find it interesting and well presented. His Ph. D., if I recall, is related to this area of expertise. As I interpret his writing, the essence of his presentation is to elucidate the balance between viscosity, flow, and pressure. This is something we do in medicine all of the time. Having adequate blood pressure speaks nothing about perfusion, as vasoconstriction can lead to organ failure despite normal blood pressure. The Celestial Design Committee, in their infinite wisdom, made several mistakes in designing the human body.. One of these mistakes is providing pressure sensors (in the carotid bulb, atrium, etc.), but NO flow sensors. It is a great deal easier to measure pressure than it is to measure flow. Witness the absence of oil flow sensors in your internal combustion engine. Pressure tells you nothing about oil flow to bearing surfaces. This is the crux of Dr. Haas' presentation. Oil with greater viscosity, while providing comfort via the oil pressure gauge, in fact, provides less flow (for the same pressure). There is, of course, an inverse relationship between flow and viscosity, for the same pressure. Furthermore, greater viscosity, while comforting vis-à-vis oil pressure, introduces more parasitic drag (and oil pump drag) reducing efficiency. In the limit, the ideal scenario is oil flow with zero pressure, while providing a protective film with zero viscosity.

I do not argue with the science. I simply present experience. Commonly used oil, of all types and brands, has such an enormous safety margin (design margin) that failure of engine parts is rarely a result of a poor choice. Finally, and thanks for your patience here, the number of miles we drive our daily drivers, not to speak of the few miles we drive our collectables, will never reach the point of engine failure. Peripherals, such as alternators, water pumps, belts, gaskets, etc., will fail, but the basic metal engine does not. Mine is an academic discussion, as the dollars saved by choosing inexpensive oil over premium brands over the course of the life of your vehicle are minimal. If one feels better choosing expensive oil, go for it. If nothing else, it speaks to the expertise of marketing and advertising agencies that come up with this stuff.

Jim S.

 

Hi Jim

Sorry for my wrong assumption!

I think you may be right about people wasting money on oil, if like many who post here, they don't do much mileage and don't redline their engines. I think anyone who does drive their cars hard would be indulging in serious false economy by not getting the best grade and type of oil they could. The problem of wear being initiated in the startup phase can only be compounded in a high performance engine which will also tend to wear more when used hard.

I repeat I have seen a lot of worn out road engines, and I suspect many of these would have lasted longer with better oil selection.

If concerned about expense why not go at least for a mineral grade with lower start up viscosity. Does this cost any or much more?

Regarding the Celestial Design I suspect it is perfectly fit for purpose. Just that the purpose includes using the design intelligence to select appropriate nutrition, avoid poisons & pollutants, take exercise, learn not to be stressed, and accept that maybe any illnesses could be part of the purpose too....

Best wishes
Will

 

Correct, I use the Royal Purple but change it at normal intervals as an older engine is going to contaminate it quickly, IMO.....

 

No need to be sorry. Interesting discussion. And if I really wanted to save money in my choice of oil then I shouldn't own the cars anyway. You know the story...."If you have to ask...you can't afford it....."

No, this is a classic science versus experience discussion. Someone on F-Chat use to include a quote to the effect (paraphrasing), "Theory is good, but occasionally one must look at the results." I believe it was on another thread that I discussed cold start mythology. Two billion cars on the planet, none of which pay attention to the cold start issue...can't be that important (in practice).

Jim S.

 

I had the good fortune to own and race a 1973 Brabham F1 car in 2004 and 2005 (Historic Grand Prix series). Phil Riley, the leading restorer of Cosworth DFV engines in the USA told me that the mandated reduction in ZDDP from motor oils coincided with increased cam wear he observed in the motors he rebuilt through the years. He put a stop to this trend by advising series race mechanics to use oils with traditional levels of ZDDP.

While I know that a Cosworth DFV reving at 10,500 is not exactly a proxy for a Dino V6 which many of us lovingly shift well below redline, the learning surely must apply.

Valvoline 20W 50 Racing oil is the only motor oil I use in my Dino. That being said, I do add some fogging oil to the motor over the winter to address the startup issue come Spring.

Interesting discussion for sure.

...Keith

 

hey, you already had a rebuild at 60K, shouldn't need another one so long as you don't run 3+ year old gas and oil in it.

With the parts we put in there, as long as you do the proper maintenance you'll be good until well past the time you can even turn that non-power assisted steering car.

DM

 

Went through all this on a previous post. The only non-synthetic oil available in the specified 10W-30 WITH enough ZDDP is Valvoline VR-1 racing oil. It is suitable for street use for vintage cars, but has fewer detergents, so must be changed more often. They also carry 20W-50 in dino or synthetic but I feel a 20weight is just too thick. I just did an oil change and switched to the 10W30. $47 for 6 quarts. So I'll change the oil every 2,000 miles now. That will be roughly 2012 the way I'm going. Too many cars too little time.

Now a really important question: how do you torque the oil filter to 23-25Nm (about 18 foot/lbs)? I just screwed it on by hand as tight as it would go (but I have huge hands and wrists) then ran it for a while and watched for leaks. Didn't see any. Total cost: oil $47, filter about $20, 5 hours of my time

 

5 hours
Put car on lift.
Loosen lug nuts on passenger rear tire.
place new "Bag jack" http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200335093_200335093 in jack tray under car. hook up to my compressor. This was a gift from my kids to make my life easier.
Flip inflation handle.
Watch in horror as entire rear of Dino immediately lifts off ramp. Watch "Bag jack" start rolling over on itself pushing entire car forward towards a 7 foot drop onto my 360. . . Yes, front wheels were chocked and car was in gear with emergency brake on. But that does nothing when both rear wheels are flying around in the air because the car is being held up by a giant non-rigid balloon.
Immediately hit deflate handle which refuses to deflate. Car is still creeping toward end of ramp.
One hand on rear bumper and the other straining to flip off the compressor which is happily still supplying air to the balloon. Thank god I was wearing gloves or I wouldn't be working for weeks.
Compressor off, balloon deflates, manage to get jackstand under frame member before tire is back on ramp.
Beat the crap out of this "Bag jack" (1 hour).
Drink a few beers to calm down (1 hour, maybe 2).
Get wheel off and inner fender off to expose filter.
Realize I have been sent wrong size crush washers by vendor. Can't remove drain plugs.
Hook up my liquivac to sump (greatest invention ever made). Suck out 5-6 quarts old oil (45 minutes, oil is cold by now and won't flow).
Change filter and use really scientific method for torquing new filter to 25Nm (squeeze the bastard like the neck of the guy who invented "Bag jack"). I figure that's gotta be at least 25 Nm.
Stare in puzzlement at jackstand still under car and wonder how I'm going to lift car up off the ramp. Try 3 bottle jacks, every one just "a bit" too tall to fit under car.
Place 35 year old Dino jack on ramp next to lifting hole. Base is 60% on ramp and 40% on air.
Pray hard.
Jack up car, add 2 more stands, replace inner wheelarch, wheel and lug bolts.
Frantically try to dislodge 3 jackstands.
Lower car back to ramp. No damage.

Tell me every one of you has not had a day like this.

 

Thank you for reminding me why I pay somebody to do that.

 

Great story.

Jack bag is discretely tucked in the garbage can, I hope?

The drain plugs are on tight. When I asked my mechanic about it one time he said, good luck without an air gun. Seems they took them off that way, but put back on with a torque wrench. Must be one of the more fun things about the car. I tried to do mine once on the transmission. At least I had the presence of mind to try and loosen the fill bolt first. What a mess that would have been if I got the drain plug out but not the fill plug.

OH, and you can get the copper crush washers in an assorted bag at Pep Boys for a few bucks.

but again, a great story, no one died ,and no cars were destroyed.

DM

 

I've had days like this. I've written a couple of checks to my body man for wounds I've inflicted on my Dino with jacks and drills.

As for loosening the oil drain plugs, I bought a 1/2" torque wrench and a big mo-fo socket and they work like a charm. I must admit I have the luxury of a lift in my garage but the torque wrench works well.

Cheers,

Keith

 

OMG, I could visualize what was going on.

No problem, just fill it with 9 pints from the gearbox fill port on top of the bell housing.
Don't ask me how I know ... as we both know who would be embarassed.
me<===