Gooding video of 275 GTB/C 09051.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #1 miurasv, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2017
    See here: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_UjeCA1hK8[/ame]

    I didn't realise the power was as high as 333 BHP. I thought the 3 carb layout restricted it somewhat and the 6 carb 250 LM is rated at 320 BHP.

    Info and provenance here: http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1966-ferrari-275-gtbc/
     
  2. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    Dyno's don't lie, but dyno operators do.
     
  3. mcimino

    mcimino Formula 3
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    #3 mcimino, Aug 9, 2017
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  4. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    Just to clarify my earlier comments. I have no reason to specifically question the power output of this car. My comments were rather to state that engine dyno results can be easily varied by whoever is operating the dyno on any given day. The way the car runs and drives is always the final arbiter of the engine.
     
  5. miurasv

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    #5 miurasv, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    What do they mean by the engine was rebuilt utilizing the finest internal components? Does this mean they are non standard? A 275 GTB/C engine produced up to 282 BHP.
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  6. Marcel Massini

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    Guys, please do NOT over-interpret things and if you try to somewhat "read between the lines" you may make huge mistakes and wrong assumptions. Do not make things up, please. I am sure that it is meant the correct and standard components (for a competition 275 GTB/C).

    Marcel Massini
     
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  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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  9. Ferri

    Ferri Formula Junior

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    #8 Ferri, Aug 14, 2017
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  10. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    " ... NOT over-interpret things"? Unbelievable 333hp is a stated fact of Gooding and no over-interpretation or any "read between the lines". And with the build sheet no "assumptions" are needed anyhow and the "correct and standard components" could be easily checked ...
     
  11. gte250

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    #10 gte250, Aug 14, 2017
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    Hello,

    We have received in the last week multiple emails from people who are interested in the history of #09051. The car was in our workshop at Hietbrink Coachbuilding where we have worked on this car in the late 80’s / early 90’s. The car has a new made body (except the roof). The chassis and sub frames were repaired at a few locations.

    The new body was made of 1.5 mm aluminium as request of the client who wanted a new and thicker body.

    The original thin racing body was send in 2008 to the new owner of #09051 in the USA.
    This was including the original nose, rear, door panels, boot and the hood.

    The information of Gooding is currently incomplete. A few years of history of the car is missing.
    Roelofs Engineering in The Netherlands received the job from F. Leiser (Belgium) for the restoration of #09051.

    From Roelofs I received the job as spoken with the customer to build a new body for the car. Leiser requested the thicker 1.5 mm body, because he thought the original body was to weak.

    The upholstery was done by the company “Cools” in Eindhoven, The Netherlands in 1992.

    To make the story complete, we would like to receive the photos of re-installation of the original body at Motion Products / MPI.

    According to some people, Gooding has a restoration dossier, which would be available at Pebble Beach. If possible, we would also like to see this information / photos.

    If there are more question, you can contact us.

    Below are some photos of the car #09051 before starting the project, after the re-body and also some photos of the original body that is shipped to the USA in 2008.

    Alwin Hietbrink,
    Hietbrink Coachbuilding
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  12. Ferraripilot

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    I'm sure you know this, but almost no Ferrari made the power alleged until the 90s, especially the old V12s.
     
  13. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    Thank you! This is most valuable first-hand information. It really helps to complete Gooding’s documentation for the late 80’s/early 90’s and it also prevents to make any “huge mistakes and wrong assumptions”. I would like to see the restauration dossier as well and not just hear about it from experts or the auction firm. Because again: history and not auction campaigning should be the issue here.
     
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  15. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    I guess that actually still the (wonderful) Huitbrink replica body and no Scaglietti body is on 09051. 1.05 mm thickness makes *visually* different edges than 1.5 mm (+50%). This can be easily checked from anybody by simple measuring and without expert reports or auction catalogues to avoid “huge mistakes and wrong assumptions”.
     
  16. miurasv

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    #14 miurasv, Aug 17, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
    Has anyone at Pebble Beach seen the Gooding & Company restoration dossier who can confirm if there is any evidence, photographic or otherwise, contained therein of the re-installation of 09051's original light gauge aluminium Scaglietti body that was removed by Alwin Hietbrink as shown above?
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Sold, hammered for $13,200,000 plus BP.
     
  18. DWR46

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    I have seen all the documentation and photos. The ORIGINAL body has been reinstalled on the car. When the car was under my care, it was easy to tell the body was not original. I also inspected the car at Pebble. It was very well done. Just remember that some people have agendas and you should take certain statements with a "grain of salt".
     
  19. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Very interesting and thanks! However, Gooding nor MPI were willing to provide such confirmation. Let’s eliminate any "grain of salt" of this important car’s history and may be somebody could kindly provide some pictures of the original body’s reinstallation and tell us, who did it and when it was done. Unfortunately, all this is missing in the detailed auction catalogue and the expert reports.
     
  20. TTR

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    ???
    Care to elaborate ?
    I assume you have fair amount of experience with these types of "visual" inspections and "simple measuring" ?
    Just curious.
     
  21. DWR46

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    LGS: Heitrbrink rebodied the car in the late 1980s-early 1990s, but kept the original body which was not badly damaged. The man who sold the car at Gooding's was able to acquire the original body from Heitrbrink, and MPI reinstalled the original body on the chassis in 2013. I have seen a number of photos of the work, but they belong to the seller (and the new owner) and I am not at liberty to release them.
     
  22. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    This is my naïve understanding and last humble knowledge about physics: If you bend 1.0 mm instead of 1.5 mm (+50%) thickness, that produces a smaller radius and different, sharper edges.

    And finally: Measure, if the roof has 1 mm and the rest 1.5 mm thickness ….
     
  23. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Thanks. Fully understood and accepted!

    However, the real issue here is history and the problem campaigning of auctioneers and experts with incomplete information and undocumented claims. If you don’t present the market long stories about the first owner's wife’s favourite dog and its birth date but instead just the unbroken, documented and complete history of the car’s frame, body and engine, any “huge mistakes and wrong assumptions” or hidden agendas will be avoided.
     
  24. TTR

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    #22 TTR, Aug 24, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
    Theoretically fair assumption, but in reality when sheetmetal, especially in these these thicknesses, is formed/shaped, whether by breaking, hammering, rolling, stretching, etc it tends to loose its manufactured conformity. In some cases it can do that to +/- 50%.

    Also, assessing/measuring sheetmetal thickness of coachwork in a refinished automoblie can be hampered by thicknesses of materials, including fillers, primers, sealers, paints, etc. applied on top of metal finished panel.

    P.S. Above comments are only opinions based on my personal hands-on experiences, though admittedly I have none with alloy body 275 GTB/C.
     
  25. tomgt

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    Hidden agendas :)

    Research is a key factor. It is important to know as much as possible about a car, with every little detail. People invest huge amounts of money and they want to know what they buy. It is all about doing your homework or have it done by a real expert.
     
  26. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Relevant, unbroken and documented information is the issue here - and elsewhere. The re-conversion of a steel GTB from later added competition features and the switch of its “incorrect” chassis number got recently declared from an expert poster as “… now back to original and really superbly done … “. Of course, these are happy news, but detailed information about the re-conversion and miraculous switch of chassis numbers would be of far higher historic importance, than mentioning the used Salchi colour code. And yes, if you buy an important car, you have to independently check unseen of any expert reports, certificates and auction catalogues, because anyone commissioned from the seller does have his horse in the race and own agenda.
     
  27. GIOTTO

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    #25 GIOTTO, Aug 31, 2017
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