Grand Prix World Championship consortium

This has been coming a long time.....

Bernie has been trustinng his ego for business advice, and I think these Big Boys are capable of smokin' him!!!!!!!

Where do I buy my tickets???? LOL!

He has sold to the banks then loaded the Board, sold the TV rights, then bought them back on the Courthouse steps......you can't treat Money Men like that without getting a comeuppance........

 

Let's hope it's a wide-open, no rules series. I want to see where the limits of modern race car engineering end.

 

Although this has been long in the works (about 3 years), it sounds like they're more serious this time around.

I wonder what ticked them more off: Bernie and all his money grabbing with the TV rights or Max with all the FIA changes?

The irony is, that if they start their series, they have to wait till the end of the Concorde agreement. At that point they will have already incurred lots of expenses from the new regulations (like new 2.4 l engine). So they might as well go along with regular F1.

I also wonder how the big manufacturers feel about the new trend in F1 to leave Europe and go abroad. Is that something they welcome as it opens new markets or is it just a pain to do the fly away races? If they hate it and GPWC comes to life, some of the newly built stadiums might end up abandoned in a few years time...

 

I don't blame the manufacturers one iota for wanting to start their own series. Bernie is so damn greedy, it's incredible how much money he has made from Formula 1. I don't feel that he has given enough money to the teams.

My only concern with a break-away series is that everyone has to be on board, and make the long term commitment. Aside from Ferrari, no other team has consistently remained in F1 for any serious length of time. Teams like Renault, Honda, Mercedes, and BMW have come and gone at their own leisure. When they don't reach the level of success that they hope to achieve, in the time frame that they have set for themselves, they just pull out. Heck, now even Ford is pulling out.

Also, what would happen to the non-manufacturer-owned teams, like Williams, McLaren, and Sauber? Would they have to be bought by a manufacturer? Has there been any talk of this that anyone has heard of?

 

Well in a sense Mc Laren and Williams are represented by Daimler and BMW. I don't think a GPWC series would be only made of factory teams. They're just the guys starting this, but I'm sure all the teams would be welcome into the club.

The point is basically to start something with a new name that is independent of all the contracts Bernie has a strangle hold on. If the manufacturers leave him, where is he going to find the cars to make up the grid? The problem GPWC has is the same reason the FIA just went ahead and made the changes: No one spokesperson/king/dictator running the show. Too much self oriented goals. That's why Bernie's position was so strong until now, because he can bring everybody to the table. But if the manufacturers get pushed too much, they just might find consensus against him.

 

I thought I have read in the past that both Ferrari and Renault may not be as committed to the new series as the others. Bernie had even offered Ferrari $50 million to stay in F1. Renault has issued statements that they are in favor of the new V8 rule. Am I wrong or has this changed? Whatever, I too hope that any new formula encourages new technology, great racing, and has room for private teams.

 

So what happens if F1 insists on the 2.4 V8 engine change, but the teams just decide to say "screw you" and show up with 3.0 V10s?

 

Well in 2006 they still have to play by the FIA rules. If they don't they won't be allowed to race. Actually some 3.0 engines will be allowed but restricted in RPMs etc. So in essence somebody like Jordan could come up with some 2.4 l V8 and take the championship home if nobody else shows up with a legal engine.

 

But seriously. Rules only work when you have compliance. So if nobody does, then so much for the rule. I guess that's called anarchy.

 

Correct. And we had that before in the turbo era when FIA outlawed the skirts and the independent teams continued to use them. Remember the silly Imola race? Ferrari vs Renault vs Alfa. Period.

I'd imagine something similar happening: The big manufacturers bringing in their V10 engines from the previous years and the independents bringing some V8 2.4 from somewhere. The FIA might even accept the V10 but reduce its rpm to nothing. At which point a Jordan team could run away with the series. I just don't see that happening. The alliance between the factory teams will crumble because somebody will pull a V8 rabbit out of the hat.

 

was just about to post this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1909581

 

I don't care ...

You see the thing is the break away series may start ... but because it is only there for manufacturers to massage their ego, it will not survive.

Why?, because once Merc, BMW, etc. decided they cannot afford to race anymore they will pull out ... series folds.

F1 is (or should be) about racing ... we do not need the manufacturers. They pull out ... great, Cosworth or somebody else gets more work.

We are in a manufacturers period of F1 at the moment ... this is the start of the return to the teams or drivers being the focus.

Pete

 

Yes, but somewhere between now and then Bernie will have to sit down and listen, primarily because of the brewing situation with the share holders (JP Morgan, etal). They're pushing for money, and if the series becomes jeopardized, he'll find himself in a jam.

 

Yes he will find himself in a jam ... but I strongly believe that out of the ashes (if Bernie fails and brings F1 down with him) F1 will continue.

It has little to do with who the individual is that is running it, whether the manufacturers want to be part of it or not, whether we have race teams or car companies making the cars ... all that is required to keep F1 going is the drive within a human being to prove that they are faster than the next guy.

I doubt very much that even Bernie has the ability to kill that completely natural human spirit to compete against another person.

If you study F1 (and pre-F1) history you will see that motorsport started to prove that 'My car is faster than your car', once we got the car design so that it was relatively reliable and not a black art, it became 'I'm a better driver than you are', etc.

Over the years we have had periods of huge manufacturer involvement (much of early motorsport and F1 history), then we went through a, still very good, period from the late 50's to questionably 90's where manufacturers stepped in and stepped out, and this is where the (mainly) English race teams came from and companies like Coventry Climax, Cosworth, Jud, etc. came from.

We had WC's won by cars made by little backyard race teams with engines made by similar little backyard operations (think early Brabhams with Oldsmobile based engines) ... but racing keeps going.

Thus the present manufacturers get pissed and leave ... maybe take McLaren and Williams down too, but that is just an opening for new teams to start, for Cosworth or maybe a new company to grow ... as what F1 has over the manufacturers series is that F1 is there for the racing ... the manufacturers series is simply about the manufacturers showing off. A few shareholder meetings later and good bye a manufacturer ... oh **** series is looking wobbly, another shareholder meeting and then they loose another and series folds!

The ones that still want to race will return to F1 with their tails between there legs, but I for one will loudly applaud that company because they have shown that racing comes high in there companies mission statement .. and that to me raises the company above the others that simply making stock to keep the companies doors open.

That is what Bernie has on his side, and everybody knows it ...

Pete

 

All nicely put Pete, but I think it is much simpler than that: There is a ton of $$$ to be made in F1 and therefore whatever happens it will survive in one shape or another.

 

In today's world, manufacture support is the vital blood that fuels any racing series. I have never hearld of a racing series or a racing team that had died out because of too much manufacture support. The race track is their biggest billboard and the play ground of the rich and famous. FIA needs to evolve to survive just as well. 24hrs of Le Man or the 24 hrs of Daytona is no where close to being as glorious as they used to be and the lack of manufacture is one of the major reasons. These days, people wants to identify what's on the track with what's in their garage. That's was the spirit and the drive behind the success of Ferrari, and that has always been what sets the likes of Ferrari and Porsche apart from the likes of Lamborgihini. Granted that the gap between the F2004 and the cars sitting in the showroom are greater these days, but it is still the name plate recognition that sells the car. The basic principles for a racing series shouldn't change, especially with the F1 series. F1 is about the best of the best, the best teams, best cars and the best drivers. Limite the dimensions, electronic driver's aid, and the displacement of the engine all you want, but let the engineers do their jobs and just let them play the game. I have no objections to the 2.4L restriction, but I do have a problem with limiting it to a V8 configuration. I didn't like the V10 rules than, and I don't like the V8 rules now. I think it takes away the creativities and the spirit to innovate behind F1. There are more than enough spec. series out there already, we don't need Bernie E. to turn F1 into one as well.

 

Did you hate F1 when Prost and Senna were battling out the very best motorracing on track drama when they were both driving McLarens?. At that point McLaren was just another racing team ... no links to a REAL manufacturer. Did it matter that they were both driving exactly the same cars ... NO!

Did you sit there and think ...**** I better go and buy that Porsche because of Prosts motor ... and when Senna had Honda power did it make a difference? I definitely didn't, I thought it was the McLaren team that was on top of their game and I also thought it was Senna and Prosts ability. After all Prost went and nearly won driving a cr@ppy Ferrari ... thus drivers ruled.

Yes these things are why manufacturers are involved with racing ... BUT if Senna's McLaren had been powered by PSk built engine ... the racing would still have been fantastic.

Thus what I am trying to say is manufacturers involvement is nice in F1 ... but not as critical in F1 as it is in sportscars series. Sportscar series has at it's roots that it is a reliability or car test ... drivers are of little importance.

Why are manufacturers not so important in F1?. Because when somebody wants to challenge themselves with the ultimate level of motorsport ... they look to F1 ... ie. F1 always has true competitors and other followers believing that it is the pinicle ... doesn't matter about manufacturer involvement.

In the 90's it was the drivers that ruled the interest side of the sport. We had Piquet, Senna, Prost, Mansell, etc. ... the cars were just their tools.

Now we have (other than MS) rather unknown drivers, thus the cars rule the interest.

Once MS retires and we get real top level competition again the focus may well return to the drivers ... and then F1 could survive very happily if nearly every car had the same engine (just like it did in the 70's and 80's with Cosworth power).

What must not happen though is that everybody is FORCED to use the same engine and same chassis, etc. ... 'cause that will kill the pinicle part of the sport which is the thing that matters most.

BMW can fnck off and play in their own sand pit ... F1 does not need them, THEY need F1

Pete

 

No, I did not hate F1 when Senna and Prost were dueling it out, and that was also close to 20 years ago. A different time and more importantly, a different game. Also, how and where in the world did you get the idea that I don't think drivers play a big part of F1 racing? And how can you say that there was no real link to a manufacture back then, you must certainly remember that HONDA was a huge factor in the 80's and the 90's. Honda has been blamed or credited (depends on how you want to see it) with the escalating cost of Formula One today. Their turbo-charged engines will forever have their place in the F1 history. And let's see.....Williams won with HONDA bolted to the back, McLaren won with HONDA bolted to the back of their cars. Lotus was competitive with Senna and also with a HONDA bolted to the back. Lotus lost HONDA because Senna wanted to move to McLaren, hence, that was a way for Ron Dennis to get the Honda engines to bolted to the back of their cars, which also translated to Williams losing HONDA engines and had to go with Judd. When the turbo era ended, McLaren was still winning with Senna and HONDA V10s and V12s bolted to the back of his cars. McLaren was in the dumps after Honda left F1, the once mighty McLaren sucked with Puguot, Ford and Judd engines bolted on the back of their cars, and they still had Senna!! Oh, and let's not forget the Ilmore (Chevy) engine that McLaren also used at one point. McLaren did not become a major player again until MERCEDES-BENZ (whom bought the Ilmore company) came into the picture. And let's not forget the RENAULT V10 that was on the back of the Williams. The domination was only broken up by MS in that tragical year when F1 lost Senna, and that was with FORD-COSWORTH engine in the back. But then guess what, surely you must recall that MS won his second WDC with a RENAULT bolted to his back. No major manufacture backing? you have got to be kidding me here. And the Ferrari that Prost was driving was not a piece of crap at all. When Prost took Berger's place in Ferrari, the car had been evolving from the original John Barnard design. And McLaren won that year because of Senna, not the other way around, Prost did not lose because of Ferrari. The following years were of course an entirely different story. Also, don't think for a minute that winning races does not translate to market sales. If that was the case, the tyre companies and the major manufactures must be out of their minds when they were advertising the fact that they had just won the F1 title. Goodyear's market share is no where close to what it was when it was racing in F1. As for Lotus, no one would give a rat's ass about Lotus if not for their racing heritage. Most people don't even know what a Lotus is these days!! Do you really think that all the CEOs of the major manufactures just wanted to be in F1 to better themselves? And for the teams, do you actually think that a F1 team can live on prize money along? McLaren and Williams are by no means living from paycheck to paycheck. Winning races brings sponsorship money and also entices major engine manufactures to team up with them. Why do you think that BMW or MB did not approach Jordan and Minardi about using their engines?

In conclusion, as you know, this is one topic that had re-surfaced time and time again. And as before, I agree that making F1 into a spec. series is a major mistake. You can keep on thinking that manufacture support is not important all you want, but the fact is, F1 needs their support just as much as they need F1 to sell their cars.

 

Time to come down off Mt. Ego, Pete. I think the air is getting a little thin where you are.

Or can you really build a F1 engine better than Honda can?

 

, ofcourse I couldn't ... I was just making point that the engine manufacturer/label did not matter. Could have just about been any engine ... or we were not even interested in the engine, as the driver battle was what we were watching.

Pete

 

Lots of very could points.

I still believe that the manufacturers need F1 more than F1 needs them. I'll explain.

Say BMW, Mercedes (Ilmor), Renault and Toyota pulled out ... all except Ferrari (because F1 does need Ferrari) ... what would happen?

We would have many race teams without engines. Oops ... but how long to you think that would last. Either other manufacturers would see this as an opportunity to get into F1 or Cosworth/Judd would become just about the standard engine ... F1 would continue.

Would it be as good? ... hmmm, it would definitely be diluted but cars would still be racing and F1 (atleast to me) would still be the pinnicle of motorsport.

Companies are involved in F1 not just to sell cars, but to demonstrate their companies abilities, their excellence. That is why you see companies completely unrelated to cars, motorsport or even computers sponsoring F1. They want to show the world that they are one of the elite companies.

Yes some people buy the new BMW because of F1 ... but I reckon it would be a very low percentage. BMW get far more out of developing engineers, and simply been involved in what is marketed as the top high tech sport we as humans have.

Anyway ... I 100% agree with everything else you have said ... but I do not think the manufacturers series will ever happen. It would take many, many expensive years to market it as a true successor to F1 ... and there is no guarantee that the public will ever believe that and take to it. Major risk! It all comes back to heritege, F1 has it in spades and you cannot buy that.

Pete
BTW: McLaren were winning very nicely pre-Honda days with Porsche engines in the MP4. The problem McLaren had post Honda engines is because they lost the plot with too much effort on the F1 road car and thus also lost a designer in Gordon Murray (he was full time on the road car and has not been involved with F1 ever since). Once they got over the road car time wasting McLaren pulled back up again ... but yes the Peugeot engines sncked

An engine is only part of the package, as is the chassis, driver and tyres. Each just about as important as each other IMO. Oh and yes the Honda engines were good ...

 

Bernie is also trying to tie the major circuits to his F1 . See Silverstone. What would the GPWC be without for example Monaco, Spa or indeed Silverstone? Very interesting to follow this. Melbourne has allready announced to stay with Bernie.

 

In that particular case it didn't matter what engine they had as they had the same one. But it did matter in the fact that it was their Honda engine that beat the rest of the field.

When I see a Mc Laren or a Williams today I see as much a Merc and a BMW on the grid duking it out. I always love a real manufacturer more (Toyota, Renault and Ferrari of course), but I do cherish the engagement and risk of these companies.

 

I find your view on the sponsorships in Formula One is a bit naive. The sponsors are there for shear advertisement value. With a competitive team, they will got more TV exposure, hence more value for their money. Why do you think it is so difficult for the smaller teams to find sponsors? Do you think Malbro, West and others are there to show that they are the best cigarrett company out there? The sponsors and manufactures are there to entice the average viewers and buyers, those that are only somewhat familiar with the series. They are not there for people like us (i.e. who spends way too much time on FerrariChat), we are too hardcore and already knows and understands of the complexity of what is F1 today. I can assure you that Compaq will sell more computers if they put the BMW-Williams mark on their computers and sell as "exclusive" or "limited" production runs as Acer did with the "Ferrari" laptops. Fact is that these days, as vain as this may sound, people are viewed and judged by the type of cars they drive, and people often identifies with what they drive as well.

I don't know if a breakaway series will happen and work or not, and you are right, Ferrari SpA. holds the key to this whole thing. If Ferrari goes, Bernie E. and his FIA is done. Do not under-estimate the power of the major manufactures, just look at the fued between CART and IRL. CART is nothing but a shell of what it used to be nowadays. Major manufactures played a big role in getting the key CART teams to move to IRL, because of the average viewers may only know Indy 500 and that may be the only race they will watch for the whole year. Same thing with the Superbowl, the cost of the commercial minutes during the halftime is insane, but major companies still are killing each other over them because it may be the only football game that average people watch for the entire year. What I am saying is that it is a different world now. I know someone who was a F1 mechanic in the 60/70's. He tells us the stories from back then all the time. Teams actually used to help each other out, mechanics would go from paddlocks to paddlocks to borrow equipments or tools. They would party together, and drivers from other teams are all real friends with each other. The great Senna-Prost duel you spoke and referred to earlier, they both admit to it that they do not like each other and they are not friends. They do however, respect each other. There was a real sense of community back then. You can pretty much forget about that now, a McLaren tech would be burned alive if he was ever found inside the William's pit. All of the changes may and may not be good, that is an entirely different thread all by itself. Again, different time and a entirely different world.

And yes, McLaren has a great team. And yes, there has been many championships won before the likes of BMW, MB or Reanult's involvement. But when was the last time in the past 30 years that a F1 team with a small engine company won a WC title? Lotus did it with FORD/Cosworth, Tyrell did it with....FORD/Cosworth, McLaren did it with TAG/PORSCHE. Are you saying that Ford and Porsche are not major manufactures in the automobile industry? And if it is true that the reason McLaren/X (fill in the blank here) was not competitive during those years were due to their efforts and resources being diverted to the McLaren F1 roadcar, then I have to say that McLaren International LTD is not nearly as great as I thought. We are talking about a major player in Formula One, a team that has more money to spend than anyone else during those years. You are telling me that they did not have the ability to design and develop TWO cars at the same time? As good as the McLaren F1 is, it may very well be the greatest road going sportscar ever for now. It is not an F1 car, and it does not require the A-team from McLaren International LTD to build, design and develop that car. I find it hard to believe and I think it was just an excuse to save face for Ron Dennis and the McLaren team, much in the same way that McLaren-Mercedes refuses to call and acknowlege their MP4-19a as a completely different car as to MP4-19 this season.

And I have never said that engines are be all and end all part of the team. They are a major factor and major force, they can also influences a team on who should pilot their cars. Honda has never been shy about it, that goes from the days of Nakajima (Senna's teammate at Lotus) to Sato. If it wasn't for Honda, Sato would have been dropped by BAR/Jordan long before he was able to prove himself this season. And if you think that Bernie E. and the others on this forum are *****ing about the lack of competition this year, wait until Ferrari is the only major manufacture left in F1, it will not only be an on-slaught, it will be a complete annilation for at least two seasons if not more. Just look at what Audi has done over in Sportscar racing, winning at Le Man is so meaningless these days.