Great American cars today

You said

A bargain a bargain a bargain. Thats a great feature for the bang for the buck, but does not necessarily make a great car., Hyundais are not expesive cars and have betetr quality interior materials than most vettes. Nothing to do with glitz its to do with quality and also frankly execution.

True the fastest new C7 vettes can put down the numbers, for something like 3 laps then theyre done. The Gs is actualy the one that performs because it can run on track for most of a day. The pushrod v8 is light compact and puts out numbers. Its also crude, dosent really love reving and spinning at high revs and is vibratey. The biggest rub against a vette is despite all the performance it does not feel all of a piece, to understand what i am saying try a cayaman Gt4 or a Gt3 on a track or some bends.

Yes the vette could be a great car, its not, its a fantastic car, for the money. Maybe the C8 will crack it, the last GM car that was great imo was the previous gen CTs v coupe, but that was then.

Yeah Challegers are great, but thats differtent for a numbe rof reasons not least because they occupy their own special niche.

 

Great post.

 

Would a katech upgrade be more reliable and durable on track than the stock motor, I doubt it unless theyre changing valves and rods, which means it wouldnt hold up on track very long.
Lightening laps are just that a single fastest lap usualy the second or third lap. That GT3 Rs can keep knocking off those laps all day long, the vette maybe not so much. I do agree that for the track the Gs is the vette to have, and for a useable road car(more so than a Gt3) their performance on track is excellent.

From my own experience a Gs is not that hard to beat whereas a Gt3 very much so, of course that could be number of laps, the drivers, or the ease of each car to attain speed with less than pro drivers. The vette also has some neat telemetry features. In the under 100K price range its definitely a great car, and arguably the best performance car under 100k. While quite different I can only think of a cayman Gt4 as a competitor under 100k, there really is nothing else.

 

10 mins?

But yes the vette is a great american car

 

IMO the last viper was let down by its motor, not because of power but the crudeness of it. What I remember from way back when is the a the V10 was esessentialy a V8 enlarged with two extra cylinders for truck duty, then redone by lambo for viper duty. To me the Viper would have been a superlative machine if they had added another 2 cylinders and dome a 10 litre pushrod V12, that would have been something truly special and justifed the price tag on sound alone.
Too bad the hellcat mtor was too tall to fit either.
Sadly excellent as they were the last vipers were not a comercial sucess.

 

I'll clarify, a new ZR1 or Z06 cant run at full tilt all day without going through tons of consumables, we worked out somethign like 5-8k for the day which makes it a moot point. And they cant sustain full pace much past 3 laps if for no other reason that rubber has not yet learned to defy physics.
Addtionaly those that buy these types of street cars for the track tend not to buy vettes because of how they drive on the limit, weight, and some well known durability issues.
If what you say was true I would see lots of vettes at the track, I see a few.

What one recently minted cayman owner told me was he bought a z06 and after two seasons and dumping tons of $$$ into it he just gave up, there was a lot he had to say, two blown motors, and various other things.

Thertes simply a difference between a car that can be fast on track and one with bones enginered to really run on track. In any event the vette shortcomings as a track runner are not uniqe to GM, a fair numbe of other "hot" and more expensive cars have similar issues.

Spend a lot of time on track and youll see that those of mere means end up sooner or later driving what works. Those with unlimited means, thats a different story. Theres a vast difference between going to one or two track days per year and driving your street car a little fast, and getting really into it and doing lots of days while moving up the ladder.

I personaly have imolated vast sums trying to make cars that should be fast work on track.
In the end theres a reason its miata porche lotus,( for relatively out the box on track), and older BMWs(not past e-46) for cheap fast modded on trailer cars.

Its my opinion, but one based on my experience, that if at some point in the future the chevy engineers can put the total focus into a new vette that they did on the c6z06 and last z28, and if the bones of that car are not simply too heavy then chevy may have a challenger or even class leader.

Can vettes makes the power, for sure, can they spit out some good numbers, yes, but theres far more to it than that.

Meanwhile, yes a vette is a great american car, one of the few and there should be many more..

 

What hp do those racing vettes have, is that related to their reliability. 491hp and under 2500lbs.
Also if were going all out race built 50k+ motors then thats a different tale and not street legal or even workable on street. Its probably not even a stock block and for sure everything else is different spec even if the architecture is SBC.
Modding an existing stock vette motor for more hp will decrease not increase reliability, unless the only thing kept is the block and even then.

I built a 570hp 302 ford, it cost close on 30k to build and the motor wouldnt work in a street car, because of compression, low rev power etc, none of which are relevant in a race motor. Not one piece in that motor including the block came from ford.

You can get a 1600hp TT sbc from nelson racing engines, fine for the street, wouldnt really work as a track motor.

 

Yes I know the C7R mtoor is power limited like most race motors due to restrictor plates. It also runs very different ocatanes, and wouldnt idle in street caceptabel way or meet emissions, talkign about a race motor is moot. Yet the C7R it acheives magnificent things because its a LIGHT car and has lots of aero.
Its easy to make power, its not easy or cheap to make power that lasts.

Chevy builds a a motor with internal components designed to last at designed Hp levels plus a little cushion. From what peopel whoi have actual experience on track with these cars have told me that cushion is not large and easily exceed on track enviroment. Amp up that motor and unless youre changing allt he internals it gets weaker, thats just a fact and its a fact with every motor from every manufcaturer, some have more margin than others.

Im sure if you pay katech enough money they can stregnthen a SBC to last on track, Im not sure you appreciate what that takes. But perhaps if you looked at the components that went into a C7r motor you might appreciate that point.

On street a motor spends 90% of its time putting out maybe 20% of its capability, on track its the other way around.

In any event this is not a corvette thread, its a great american cars thread, the corvette in stock forms is a great american car, its just not great on track in stock form, other than the Gs.

 

The V10 was developed for trucks, I think it is a 360 v8 with two extra cylinders, uses the same tooling as the v8 in manufacture, that was its genesis. Lamborghini who was owned by chyrsler at the time then developed that motor further for viper duty, aluminum block inetrnals etc. Nothing wrong with that, many other great motors have followed the same path.

All I am saying here is they should have added another two cylinders by viper 3 to have a pushrod V12, that really would have been something, not least because the big cube pushrod V10 sounds like crap, and sound is a crucial component in an exotic, which the viper surely was. IMO sergio would not have allowed a V12 because it would then be crimping into ferrari territory with a better less expensive car.

The Hellcat motor is simply one of the greats and with soemthign like that we could have had a less expesive viper too. Its reallya great pity the viper no longer eixts, it was imo the true american exotic, but it seems it was too expesive for what it was and too crude and not exotic enough for what it cost. Thats why the vette whic is a infinitely more advanced evolved and lkess expensive car stole the show.

But you know Shelby cobras were not great sellers back in the day either, and look how theyre revered now. We just know that years from now a viper, particularily and ACR is going to be the collectable american car of this era and for good reason., its performace and looks..

 

Lets see I run mostly, WGI which is 3.4 miles around and Monticello which is 3.7 both considered big tracks for USA. I spend 20 odd days per year on track.
Limited by time budget and NE weather.

Agreed the SBC is one of the if not the worlds greatest motors, light and compact, inexpensive for the power it puts out. I also know that you can build one to last, but thats costs much more $$$. Personaly i prefer a SBF because the rod ratios are so much better, but the sbc is more developed, parts are more pelntiful and it works.

The debate was if you amped up a stock GS motor to 600hp or more, that will imo make it weaker in terms of track durability. For sure you can strip a Gs motor, change rods pistons put in roller rocker etc and make it strong for track, but when all is said and done thats a 20k+ job and a different debate. Realiticaly the GS would be a lot quicker and more durable on track if it simply weighted less.

To the extent were ven debating this further, a C7R performs so magnificently because its light and does not need excess hp. When a street car gets heavier with each iteration c5-c7 and then more Hp is added to increase performance, other bits need to get beefier driving up weight again, its an unvirtuous circle. Even if you use Giant brakes you cant stop the tires from going off due to excess heat at full tilt. Racers learnt long ago, well at least since the mid 60s that lightness and a stiff tub is everything, its the building block for everthing else.

If youre talking track prowess by 2018 standards the C7 is neither light nor stiff, (it is also fully developed and performs excelent for what it is and price), that means its a limited platform in terms of growth, both for chevy or a weekend warrior. The fast vettes I see at the track are mostly C5s because thyere so much lighter, and as you say building power in a v8 is easy.

The thing is for anyone of reasonable means who goes tot he track regularily, durability and consumables are the big factors. Sure you can take your new vette on street tires once or twice a year to run some "hot" laps and the only fatser car in that group regardless of marque will be the one with a better driver. I am refering to a very different duty cycle. I see serious stockish vettes showing up on trailer, or even towing a little wagon behind with their race slicks, or coming with r compounds, they then go out and run hard as possible for the day. So I can go by how I see these cars run on track and what their owners tell me.
Its no internet bragging forum where the rubber meets the tarmac.

So while this is not the C8 thread, if the C8 is stiff, if it can be made in some iteration light enough it may become one of the greats.

If however its an intrinsicaly heavy, then yes 1000hp will make it perform for a few laps and beat car XXX on the magazine numbers game for year, but realisticaly it will be great like the veyron and aventador are great, ie a totaly excess over the top street car. Same can be said of the C7 ZR1, but that car has a rawness and a ultimate development of the Fe format that makes it really unique and imo very collectable to the extent thats relevant, and its also probably more fun on road than an aventador or veyron, none of them though would be the choice for a hard day on track.

The hard part for vette engineers is building a car that comfortably works for the golf club set which is probably 70% of sales, and still having the ability from the same platform to build a real track performer for that limited niche market, plus of course building a 800 or 10000 hp hybridised halo version for those who love stats and want the ultimate.

We saw with the Viper that rawer more focussed car has too limited appeal, we see that with lotus too. So the question is can one platform be made to dance at several parties. Hard to do off one platform, but porche manages it off the 911.

We might say that vette is bang for the buck, but as were now enetrign the 1000-150k vette territory I am assming and hoping thyere building a comensurate car, and not last decades ideal which was more about excess hp and little attention paid to to weigth(same accusation to ferrari lamborghini etc, but theyre moving on).

 

Its not a competition or personal, these are just cars.
The SBC like the Toyota V6 are basicaly engines of humble origins, mass produced blocks and relatively inexpensive. They both can be made to make power relatively cheaply and are reliable if not pushed too hard, by changing inetrnals they can be pushed harder because both blocks can absorb tremendous power. The difference between the two is the sbc is 50s tech and the toyota is 2k tech. That means the SBC gas a narrower power band and is less smooth, plus its somewhat rev limited in stockish form.

on the toyota front I find the motor to be a smooth as the one in my BBI and it sounds great with the lotus track exhuast. Its flywheel is too heavy imo for a track setup, its not as snappy as a Gt3 or 458 motor and we know that going past 600hp the rods are weak, thats academic because the transmission wont really live on track much past 500hp. Adding Hp to the toyota mtoor is probably more expesnsive than doing same toa SBC and there less development and experience with this. It also works in the lotus because it fits there.

The lotus gets away with it all because its really light, stiff and has excellent suspesion dynamics. Currently with a mere 360hp the issue is getting all the power to the track without wheelspin in say 3rd gear coming off an apex. And when I was on track yesterday trying to keep pace with what I thought was a GT3 Rs its was one of those catch them on the corners and then loose them on the straights, same laptimes. Turns out I was trying to follow a GT2Rs, 700hp and 7 speed paddles is quite a thing.

So heres hoping the C8 combiies the best of them all. 3000lbs 650 NA quad cam hp, so theres power across a wide rev range and its smooth.
Clearly as a lotus owner fancy inetrior or steller build are not my priorities. Lets see if for 150k chevy builds a great, or whether its just another high hp vanity car.

 

Yeah its a silly debate, and you seem stuck on it in two threads, but its enjoyable and illustrative, filled with info, and actualy it seems we agree.
I have never said the bottom end on a stock GS SBC is weak, thats your imputation. The weakness I understand is the factory rods and valvetrain, plus some early oiling issues. (not talking about the supercharged cars which are different gain) If you want to understand how strong the block is theres a great video from nelson racing on this, basicaly you can go to 1600hp, but thats not any stock internals or heads and a moded block but he architecture is there. Mercure marinbe also makes a quad cam version of the Ls7 sbc and that gets 750 hp, breathing/heads does wonders. The pushrod version of that motor came stock in the C6 from Gm with titanium rods and a whole host of expensive light strong bits, which made it more expensive to build than the supercharged motors.

Youre right after 100 million built every weakness of the SBC is known, and the ones today are very different to the ones in 57, only the architecture is really the same, that does not mean factory stock motors are built to cover every weakness, because these motors are built to cost and ease of build..

Yes if you push a Gs motor it gets weaker, we both agree, Your quote" Obviously, a 600HP LT1 is not going to have as long a life as a 460HP LT1,"
Where the weak point is neither of us have the data, I dont know what katech does to the motor. Anecdotaly from people who have run these stock LT1s in anger enough stock ones have failed that I would be leery about pushing stock internals. If youre upgrading internals then thats a very different cost.

BTW I also think its ridiculous that people expect even a bone stock track driven car to still have a 50K warranty, I cant think of any track driven car that can make it 50K miles.

GM unlike others provides the warranty if you drive on track, they probably make so many and so few go to the track that the failures are less of a cost than the marketing gain. Plus if it fails Gm has you covered. I know of one C7 on its third motor. Of course once moded warranty bye bye.

As to your c5 vs C7 point its once again you running out of context and jumping between stock and modded.. The C5 is significantly lighter and I was refering to moded C5s on track, These cars are further lightened, usualy stiffened with a cage and have upgraded motors, coilovers, brakes etc, thats the way to do a fast vette on track, short of spending over 75K.

The C5 through C7 are essentialy the same platform and car, a C7 is just a evolved C5 platform, heavier, somewhat stiffer and a little longer. None of these vettes C5-C7 is what you call really stiff by todays standards.

in any event all this is known, thats why were moving to the C8, a mid engined car can put the power down and is hopefully way stiffer. I might even speculate that things like wishbones will be carried over from the C7 because those are already excellent, and quite beautiful to look at too, keeping the good bits and spending money to develop god bits elsewhere makes sense..