great Sheehan Classiche article

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rob Lay, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,472
    Much of Classiche is nothing more than a money grab. It's one thing to sell me an expensive car. It's quite another to artificially de-value it because I don't play the game and stay in your political good graces by feeding your meter all the time.

    Who exists for the other?

    Either you mind being extorted or you don't.

    CW
     
  2. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
    685

    They're the factory. They built the car. They have the records. To the vast majority of the community, they have the credibility. For a fee, if you choose (not required), you can have them review the current condition and state of the car, and verify it still lives up to the original and authentic standards. Sure, there are independents with plenty of credibility that can provide similar reviews, but they aren't Ferrari. My guess is, as time goes on, more and more classics will continue seeking Classiche certification. Obviously, the trend is growing. And, frankly, the cost really isn't that much, all things considered. If one day you choose to sell the car, the buyer may or may not consider this of great value. How is that devaluing your car? It actually sounds like a pretty cool (and voluntary) service.
     
  3. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 25, 2002
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    Ross
    it ceases to become voluntary when they insist, directly or indirectly, on classiche being done in order to participate in events that they dont even run, and in sales that are not run by them. that is blocking people from enjoying their cars without paying more money to the factory. whats next? not being allowed to join fca unless your car is certified? not being able to be serviced at a dealer unless you are certified? not being able to buy oem parts unless you are certified? its a slippery slope in blackmail land...

    i am beginning to understand jay leno....

    i wont be selling my cars, or using them less because of this, but i also will take this into account when thinking about which cars i might want to own in the future. maybe i am alone in that, or maybe i am such a minority vs their production numbers that we are irrelevant. it is voluntary as you say for the moment, but i wont be volunteering too much more.
     
  4. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    24,857
    Texas!
    Let's say you have a F40. If so, you have probably done the prudent thing and massively upgraded the brakes. It is my understanding Ferrari will not certify your car unless you go back and put on the POS original brakes. Stupid.
     
  5. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
    685
    Well, I wish I owned an F40. If I did, I would go to great lengths to assure it was fully pure and OEM. I'm a purist. That's just me.

    As to your question - correct, that is the point of Classiche certification. If one chooses to put non-OEM brakes on their car (which is certainly their right to do so), of course it wouldn't pass Classiche certification. The point of the service to verify authenticity.
     
  6. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,472
    I could repeat myself and continue to address your points, but why? You seem to like it. Happy for you.

    Now, come find me after 25+ years of multiple F-car ownership. Then tell me how you feel about their arbitrary and capricious edicts.

    CW
     
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  8. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,472
    The point of the service is to put money in SpA's pocket...

    CW
     
  9. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
    685

    I am not sure what events you are referring to. I guess it depends. Certainly, there are some concourses where originality and authenticity are paramount. And, there are endless shows and events that don't require concourse standards to participate and enjoy. I suppose anything is possible, but your examples are a bit far fetched. But, who knows. I'm simply referring to a voluntary service that Ferrari offers. Choose to take advantage of it or not. Its the owners decision.

    I don't begrudge people for feeling differently. This is all just a respectable exchange of ideas. I just think Classiche is a great option. If they didn't offer it, I would wish they would.
     
  10. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
    685
    So what. Why is that so bad? Good for them. I just bought a brand new car from them. I don't expect them to offer me freebies the rest of my life. They're a business.
     
  11. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
    685
    It's all good. No hard feelings. We all love the cars. This is just and exchange of opinions. I respect your thoughts, even if we don't agree on this topic.
     
  12. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,472
    They sold me the car. They don't need to keep their hand in my pocket for the rest of my life, do they? And, to disallow me from participating in SpA/FNA events if I don't allow them to do that is the very definition of extortion and unreasonable.

    I'm not at liberty to say who, but I've certainly heard that within the FNA/dealer network there's plenty of grumbling, too. SpA is the bull in a china shop, and the dealers are on the front lines dealing with owners who feel abused.

    As I've said, there are some aspects that are useful. The rest of it is nonsense.

    CW
     
  13. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,472
    And, to be clear, I don't expect "freebies", either. Believe me, I've paid (a lot) for the privileges I've received along the way. But, I don't think it's okay for SpA to unilaterally harm the value of my car(s) because I choose not to get (or keep) certification.

    CW
     
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  15. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 25, 2002
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    i guess you did not read sheehan's article with great attention....

    he says that the mille tribute is no longer open to non-classiche cars, and later says that one of the main auction houses declines to sell any car without classiche - both of these are evidence of SpA putting pressure on them. hence my references.

    but you are (willfully?) missing the point i am trying to make.
    as a testimony of authenticity of a vintage car with undocumented history, this classiche certification serves a useful purpose. everything devolving on from that scenario is increasingly obtrusive and abusive.
     
  16. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,472
    I've not seen what Jaguar Heritage (or other manufactures like MB or Porsche) produces, but just maybe there are better, less intrusive and upsetting ways to achieve the goal (whatever that might be)?

    CW
     
  17. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 23, 2013
    1,731
    David Piper makes a good point in the petrolicious article about wiping off years of race history in order to certify a car as being as it was the day it first turned a wheel, having yet to race or prove itself!
     
  18. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 25, 2002
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    yews i saw that too. how true.
     
  19. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
    Consultant

    Dec 30, 2006
    2,360
    FRANCE
    Right, but I hope that Classiche will encourage the owners of the many 275 GTB and 365 GTB/4 cut by Sheehan and others in the 80s, to restore them back to original berlinetta configuration.
     
  20. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 4, 2005
    761
    Yorkshire, UK
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    John Gould
    +1

    Most of us who have owned a Ferrari for any length of time will have paid out many thousands on servicing and repairs - several of which were due to lash ups in original production. Until recently, owners of Enzo era cars were totally dependent upon skilled craftsmen outside of the official network, as Ferrari really didn't give a toss until they smelt a new income stream.

    And as for Rossocorsa1's comments that they built the cars, they have the records, that that were the case! First, most of the work is actually farmed out to subcontactors and, secodnly, several historians, who are posters here, know a lot more than the factory (see my comment about giving a toss as far as records are concerned1)

    I don't know if Admiral Goodwrench has had his 500MD Classiched but I'll wager he knows more about that car than anyone in the Ferrari organisation!

    Of course, we all have opinions and no one has a monopoly on what is right or wrong. This is what makes the discussion enjoyable.
     
  21. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,472
    SpA has, to some extent, addressed that with their white books, I believe. For example, the Breadvan (which started life as an SWB, IIRC) can get a white book, but not a red. Maybe it's a reasonable alternative.

    SpA's archives, however, really aren't a substitute for the knowledge of the experts who've been around these cars for decades while Ferrari moved on.

    CW
     
  22. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,472
    Even better said. +1 back.

    CW
     
  23. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Rookie
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    Jul 28, 2004
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    Ron
    I'm not sure that is true.

    Yes, the Mille Miglia could require Classiche, but the Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia has not - or did not in 2016, 2017, and has no edict written up on their website for 2018.

    I have not been asked for any Classiche type of documentation for my 2016 and 2017 runs.
     
  24. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Oct 16, 2007
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    Edwardsville, IL
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    I am torn on Classiche because there are some items that are legitimately good while others are excessively greedy.

    A clarification on your comment of the historians. Classiche has in the past had multiple highly respected outside historians that are part of the council. I do not know who is on it today but have known of at least 2 of the members from several years ago. And, these historians do have access to the factory files.

    Something that I do put in the good column for Classiche is their ability to determine if the proper big components are correct. There have been marketplace instances of "matching number" claims that were based upon restamps. A current seller may not know that some items were changed post-factory; they unwittingly accept what had been represented to them.
     
  25. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,472
    Of note (and I don't think I'm retracing old territory), SpA imposed a Certification Application requirement for cars in the now-defunct Historic Challenge. I can't say it was the sole reason why the series died off, but it sure didn't help.

    I'm aware that this also created some bizarre activity.

    CW
     
  26. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    936
    All this just proves my view from when the process started, just a profit center, nothing else. While the factory may have Build Sheets and Blueprints, they have NO bodybuilder records. Major mechanicals, yes; details, not a clue. As to promptness, I have a friend who has waited TWO YEARS for his Red Book. The errors that have come out of the process are legend, fake cars certified, original engines being restamped (and loosing forever the correct stamps) because they could make more money. As for events, the Pebble Ferrari display is for certified cars only.
     
  27. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    Mar 29, 2007
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    Timo
    I respectfully disagree with above.
    The way I see it, most real car gals/guys/people don't need (or desire?) "all the stuff", especially (concourse) awards or certificates to enjoy their car.
    OTOH, many of the investment collectors or social event enthusiast who buy/own/sell cars mainly based on their publicly perceived value or status are likely the target audience (suckers ?) these certification programs are designed for.
    I mean how many real car guys need the Factory to tell them their car is authentic or need the same Factory annually to remind them that it's STILL authentic ?
     

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