great Sheehan Classiche article

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rob Lay, Aug 1, 2017.

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  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #176 miurasv, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    ...but it seems that has now changed and to keep the Red Book Classiche status the car has to be maintained annually by the Authorised Classiche Workshops, not just checked for authentication. I spoke with Maranello Egham yesterday and they are still themselves vague on the new requirements but although the person I spoke to a little while back had thought that the check only could be performed by the Ferrari Classiche Authorised Workshops, and it could be maintained by a non authorised specialist such as DK Engineering etc, he is now of the opinion that only the Ferrari Classiche Authorised Workshops can perform the maintenance if the Red Book status is to be continued, which is in line with the new Classiche Rules that Marcel Massini posted as below.
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  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #177 miurasv, Aug 9, 2017
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    The Red Book does not certify the car "IS" original. It certifies that its specification/details are "AS" or "SAME AS" original. The engine has to be of the correct tipo with the correct tipo mumber. It does not have to have the actual original engine with the original engine number the car was made with to get a Red Book. It will have been noted in the Red Book that the engine in your father's car was not the original one in the car but matching the original specification of the original engine. See post 169 above.
     
  3. bernardo66

    bernardo66 Moderator
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    What about those that had all of their smog equipement removed.

    Back in the day, the Montreal dealer used to remove the systems, like on my 78 308GTS
     
  4. Marcel Massini

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    #179 Marcel Massini, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
    Mr. Parker:

    0313 EU:
    Unfortunately in about 1976 the original engine 0313 EU was out of the car and sold to Mr. L. in West Covina/CA. Engine 0313 EU was later re-sold for installation in another 250 Europa. Certain people in SoCal then restamped original engine 0313 EU with another number (0347 EU), thereby basically destroying the origins of engine 0313 EU.
    Engine "0313 EU NOW STAMPED 0347 EU" was then "upgraded" from a 3 liter into a 4.5 liter engine and installed in a 375 MM...........
    Which means that the original engine 0313 EU is really gone forever.
    I have photographic proof for all this.
    As you know well, car 0313 EU was totally restored in Switzerland between December 2009 and April 2012 and needed a proper type 250 Europa engine. The Swiss owner managed to buy sister 250 Europa engine 0331 EU (note difference between 0313 and 0331, not a typo!!). Car 0313 EU was factory certified 14 February 2013 with Certificate #3440 F and engine 0331 EU installed. The installation of engine 0331 EU in chassis 0313 EU was accepted by the Ferrari factory because of the identical type (despite being non-matching numbers now). Although huge efforts (incl. several trips to California!) were undertaken to obtain the original engine block 0313 EU (that had been restamped so badly) there was no chance to obtain the original engine block 0313 EU from the people in California.
    There is even another 250 Europa in South American ownership that unfortunately uses an incorrectly/fraudulently stamped engine "0313 EU" but that car does not have the original engine block 0313 EU.
    Naturally it is very frustrating that the original engine block 0313 EU is unobtainable but the factory agreed to certify the car due to CORRECT TYPE engine. Yes, 0313 EU is non-matching numbers these days.

    The certification is NOT about matching or non-matching numbers, it is only about the correct TYPE of engine.
    Yes, numbers do not have to match to receive factory certification.
    I personally don't like that and in the case of car 0313 EU I can tell you that several ten thousands of US$ have been invested for engine investigation and research. Without success. Very disappointing and frustrating. Certain Californians unwilling to assist and co-operate.

    I am convinced that if the original engine block 0313 EU were back in chassis 0313 EU the value of the entire car would be significantly higher now. Unfortunately some people in California ruined everything.

    Despite having the Factory Certification (red book) today 0313 EU is worth a bit less because of the non-matching engine. Just my 0.2 cents, of course.
    Maybe the market thinks different today. We shall see soon.

    Marcel Massini
     
  5. of2worlds

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    MM a good memory of the facts is priceless, you can't put a dollar figure on that sort of (history) knowledge!
     
  6. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula Junior
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    There is no substitute for experience and true knowledge.

    Thanks again to Marcel for his replies and sharing of detailed, fact based information.
     
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  8. of2worlds

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    #182 of2worlds, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So the GTB has gotten some play here but what about 10621 that went to Classiche for restoration? Color changed from born with Nocciola to something made up called Chianti Red that wasn't the factory paint plus umpteen different colors in between. Also the exterior mirror that Marcel mentioned earlier was in this case some really funky body colored design mounted on the front fender that Classiche had to work with! Was the restoration paint lacquer? Some people have noted modern paint doesn't match the color of the old lacquer formulas from the 50's 60's period. Born with paint color doesn't matter for a red book? When the restoration has the blessing of Classiche then all is good!
    Forgot to mention the new tin roof job. I bet that new roof is not a half inch lower on one side...
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  9. BarryK

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    FWIW, I emailed ACI Palermo which the local organisation for the Targa Florio Ferrari Tribute asking the question about Classiche requirement next year, and got a reply - in the middle of August!

    All they say "Ferrari will make entrance requirements for 2018 Ferrari Tribute event. They will be known near to the event"

    So, not a categorical yes, but sounds like changes are underway. I imagine similar for Mille Miglia.

    But as you point out, for most cars, it won't matter because of the 20 year rule. But a smart move by gently introducing it now when it affects few cars, and then telling people down the line that it has been a requirement for years.
     
  10. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

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    when you see that 0534M (to be auctioned at Maranello on September 9) is granted with the "red book" though described with engine 0470MD, i.e. a 1954 750 Sport (Tipo 105) while the 750 Monza it is originally had a Tipo 110 ?
    Thanks
     
  11. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Rookie
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    If it goes through Classiche in Maranello, it's the same as being blessed by the Pope, I think . . .
     
  12. v8jet

    v8jet Rookie

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    Ferrari Spa is an EU company and as such bound by EU Law including the "anti-competition" laws.

    So how can it be in accordance with EU law for them to insist that you can only use their (limited) Classiche dealer network?

    The major car manufacturers lost that battle in 2003 when the so called "Block Exemption" rules were passed (for those outside of EU it effectively meant every car manufacturer would have to honour their new car warranty even if the car was serviced onside of their dealer network - as long as servicing was done to manufacturer's specification).

    It would be illegal for Ferrari to do this, and there are very hefty fines for breach of that particular law.

    Ferrari is a special company but even they can't say their terms and conditions override the law under which the company operates or does a lawyer (I'm not) want to correct me???
     
  13. The Strad

    The Strad Formula Junior
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    #187 The Strad, Aug 16, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
    I am not a lawyer, but I have some Ferrari Classiche/Certification experience. When my 328 became more than 20 years old, I had it certified by Ferrari and I got the Red Book a couple of months later as a result. A beautiful thing, that, in my mind, belonged/belongs to the car from then on. When I bought my CS, I sold the 328 with the Red Book included in the sale.

    Now, when Ferrari spa decides to organise gatherings like Tribute to Mille Miglia, to Targa Florio, Cavalcade, .... or it invites RM Sothebys for holding prestigious auctions, on which selected guests are bidding, then Ferrari spa has the right to set the rules. That is 100% logic.
    If (I say clearly IF!) Ferrari spa decides that only Classiche certified cars are eligible to the aforementioned events, I don't see where the problem is. If Ferrari spa's rules say that Classiche certified cars have to have an annual check at selected, Classiche authorized Dealers that THEY decide, that is their good right. Even if those Classiche authorized Dealers would be located in Jamaica. :D

    So, basically Ferrari spa sets the rules.
    Nobody is obliged to have his/her car certified.
    Nobody is obliged to take part in a Tribute 1000 Miglia,...
    Nobody is obliged to put his/her car for sale at a Ferrari/RM Sotheby's organised auction.
    And so on...

    That Ferrari spa is exploiting the situation is just a human perception. They protect their market, in their proper (very commercial) way. You go along, or you don't. The choice is still in the hands of the owners.
     
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  15. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    This is an incorrect assumption. You can fix/restore your car wherever you like, they aren't prohibiting anyone from doing that. But they will not allow non-licensed shops to issue recertification. That is probably well within their right.
     
  16. 360gtracer

    360gtracer Formula Junior
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    Thank you *VERY* much Steven and Marcel for helping my understanding.

    Marcel - you have provided information regarding that engine of which we were unaware. Great to have that clarification and understanding. I'm sure my Dad will find this interesting. Thank you again for your contribution.

    George P.
     
  17. Marcel Massini

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    Pleasure, as always.

    Marcel Massini
     
  18. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    Perfectly stated. Precisely my point as well. I'm scheduled to have my car certified in a few weeks.


     
  19. Rory J

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    There seem to be many inconsistencies in the Classiche program. At the 7oth anniversary gathering in Maranello this past weekend (in which I was told all participating Ferraris have passed through Classiche certification), there were several incorrect items. For example, one Boxer was fitted with a modern Ferrari navigation display and one Dino had an incorrect Vitaloni Californian mirror. Even the Dino 246 GTS in the Maranello museum had a Cavallino badge on the rear!
     
  20. TTR

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    Please see post #167
    From I've observed from sidelines, if 100% OE correctness was expected or mandatory, probably over 90% of already certified cars wouldn't qualify, most even likely not by a long shot.
     
  21. GSJFerrari

    GSJFerrari Karting
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    I received this email from the factory looking to take customers away from independent shops.........
     

    Attached Files:

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  22. bernardo66

    bernardo66 Moderator
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    #195 bernardo66, Sep 28, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
    When it comes to the older cars (say my 78, 308), I have far more faith in the independent shops.
     
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  23. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    Perhaps "they" are hoping you'll snitch on your own clients .
    Or clients of your (independent) competitors.

    Maybe there's a "bounty/compensation" for each "referral", based on certificate value schedule (i.e. $500 for each 308 and $5000 per SWB or something ?) or could it be one those (use your favorite accent) "you better not refuse our request !" deals ? :rolleyes:
     
  24. johngtc

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    But note the date on the Email - Mon October 28, 2013.

    What has been happening in the past 4 years?
     
  25. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    Good point, my bad to overlook such details and "assume" it is/was a recently received, but my tung-in-cheek jest might still apply. ;)
     
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  26. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Just noticed that the Certification was in 2009. See here: http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/1950-Ferrari-275%20GTB%20Alloy%20Long%20Nose-3.3%20Litre%2012-Cyinder%20
     
  27. art taxman

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    Ferraris are wonderful cars. Always have been. Special. Different. But if nobody cared about them nobody would care about them. The guys and gals who sought, bought, read about, studied, followed, raced, drove, worked on, kept and loved these cars are the reason we know about them.
    Without that decades long involvement the cars would be long gone and barely remembered.
    Ferrari has the records and deserves recognition respect and admiration for diligent attention to and preservation of that treasure.
    Sharing it with the community of enthusiasts worldwide can be a way to recognize the contribution of those enthusiasts past and present.
     

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