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Haltech E6X first test drive!!!

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by luckydynes, Sep 18, 2005.

  1. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    pit bull
    Hey all,

    I've been installing a Haltech E6X ecu and just went for my first test drive and data log session . . . I'm only using the ignition portion right now to control the distributors (both of them . . . '81 308). Contrary to the info from the chap that I bought the Haltech hardware from, the stock triggers seem to work fine as I think Atlantaman posted.

    I programmed the "Euro" digiplex timing curve that's in the manual (as opposed to the U.S.) . . . the car actually seems to have some pull now!!! Anyone have any other advance curves to experiment with?

    I've made up all my fuel injection "retrofit" components and might be starting that in the next week or so . . . I thought it wise to get the ignition portion working properly before starting on the EFI.

    I'm thinking I might replace the distributors with coil packs and an MSD DIS-4 . . . right now though I'm stoked that I can program new advance curves and didn't have to hack up the car . . .

    I've also got a spare motor in the works with some BIG cams (I think .450 lift on the intake if I remember right).

    This forum has been a great inspiration for me to get this project done . . . thanks to all that post their successes and failures!!!!!

    Sean
     
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  3. Harta320

    Harta320 Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
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    Sean,

    I have been looking at EFI for over a year now and I think the Haltech is the way to go. Especially if you have the original crank sensors working. I plan on starting this project some time this winter so please keep the updates coming.
    How difficult has the install been to this point and how did you get the crank sensors to work? Guessing thru the software?

    I am trying to decide between the E6 and E11. Any suggestions would be great. Here is what I am planning on doing. I plan on using a motorcycle coil on plug and motorcycle individual throttle bodies. The ignition will be set up with 2 MSD DIS-4 run in a waste spark set up. Some one on this forum did this on thier 355, search the archives. From what I have read about the E6 I will need to set the ECU up for COP (4 cylinder) in the software and just run the 2 DIS4's in parallel (waste spark). I'll need a cam sensor. The question I have for anyone reading this, is will I need sequential injection for the individual throttle bodies? From what I have read about the E6 I will not beable to run COP and sequential injection for an 8 cylinder engine. I believe the E11 can handle both. I am trying to keep things simple (LOL) and with a cam sensor set up it may be better to just go ahead and run everything sequentialy. Any ideas from anyone?

    Sean, please post any pics if you have them. I like the way you set up the ignition first. Mine has been giving me fits and I think I may go this route also.

    Good luck
    Bill
     
  4. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Hey Bill,

    Wasn't that bad but I do have a scope to make sure things are as they're supposed to be. What worked really cool (so far) was just plugging/tapping in to the old digiplex connectors so I could always go back if I had a cluster . . . 4 wires on the 1-4 plug and 3 wires on the 5-8 plug . . . 4th wire was for the tach which works!!!! Couldn't get it to work on the Haltech output . .. there's supposed to be a software config for the tach output to get the scaling to work, but it wasn't coming up in the properties box in the menu. Eventually I want to use this output because I'm not sure it's wise to tap off the hot side off the coil with an MSD box . . . but MSD also has tach output so deal with that later.

    Software has some adjustable gains to filter the trigger signals . . . once again working so far.

    I used the 5-8 trig for firing the dist 1-4 and vice versa trig 1-4 for dist 5-8 since the haltech requires the trigger to be +10 deg of max advance.

    As you stated, the thing about the 6x is it won't do full sequential injection on an 8 cylinder . . . only has 4 drivers . . . but if you want to do full sequential, you need some home signal (which you'll also need if you do DFI which I think I'll do eventually) . . . I go back and forth between triggering off the cam and triggering off the crank . . . I keep imagine the cam belts stretching and throwing everything off, but I'm sure this isn't happening since this would mean the cam timing would be moving. Cam triggering no problem you think? It's sure easier to trigger off.

    I like the individual motorcycle coils . . . I'll check that out. I was thinking 4 two post coils in waste spark.

    Also, any particular throttle body reccomendation? . . . Archives right?

    One other thing about the E11 (I think) is the 8 injector drivers give you the ability to trim individual injectors/cylinders . . .

    I mounted the E6 and the haltech "dumb" igniter in the same location as the old digiplex's . . . the thing is my trunk is removed and heat will be a problem, so I'll be addressing that in the near future . . . either putting the trunk back together or making somthing "custom" panels (probably somthing in the archives on this). I have the air temp sensor in the vacinity of the electronics and did some data logging to see how hot it was getting . . . it is so cool to have that capability . . . oh yeah, and seeing the RPM graphs climbing to 7700 rpm for the first time are truly euphoric after fantasizing on the F1 game telemetry . . .

    I'll get round to some pic's.

    Sean
     
  5. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    I'm going to order one of the Innovate wide band O2 sensors and data acquistion boxes (seems like a lot of bang for the buck . . . comes with 2 axis accelerometer) . . . I thought it'd be useful (and neat!!!) to see what kind of ratios the stock Bosch system runs and hopefully this will help get me in the ballpark when tuning the Haltech . . . I then proceeded to follow this thought up with a search on ebay and the internet for rear wheel dyno's :) Now that would be cool!!!

    The other day a friend was telling me a story about a local shop blowing up a guy's mustang after he'd signed a waiver . . . I didn't need to hear that!!!

    Sean
     
  6. pad

    pad Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2004
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    How about posting your ignition curve. I've put together one that works well with my QV and would like to compare it to what you came up with.
     
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  8. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    I'm not sure how to export it from the Htech software.

    I have an excel spreadsheet I could post, but basically all I did is take the curves in the Mondial 8 manual for the euro digiplex (converted units and interpolated points to enter data into the Htech software) . . . there's three different curves for three different engine loads/mannifold pressure. .. page D4.

    I was looking at this last night . . . I used the Htech software to "morph" the three curves so it interpolates the timing between the three MAP's defined by Ferrari . . . so it's not exactly the same . . . it would have been the same (well close) if I wouldn't have had the Htech software interpolate between MAPs.

    The curve is actually a 3 dimensional map . . . let me know if you still would like to see "raw data" in the spreadsheet which is really just a duplicate of the individual F curves . . . the Htech software did the interpolation between loads and I haven't found if you can export the raw data.


    Sean
     
  9. pad

    pad Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2004
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    The raw data/spreadsheet would be fine.
     
  10. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    #8 luckydynes, Sep 19, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  11. Harta320

    Harta320 Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
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    Bill Smith
    Sean,

    Mark E (Mke) is the forum expert on the Haltech. He used the home signal off of the cam with out any problems on his blown monster 308. I believe there are pics some where in the archives. I would like to use the 6X but I am not sure if you can use the throttle bodies in batch mode. Either way, stepping up to the e11 is not that big of a deal just more mulaw! I talked to Mark E this summer about an idea I had for the intake plenum and he suggested I use motorcycle throttle bodies. After some research they look like a great idea with out to much fabrication. Tuners in Europe are using them on all kinds of stuff and they are just starting to catch on in the US. Look at Suzuki GSXR1000 and the Honda CBR 1000 or 959. You can find these on ebay for about 2 to 300 bucks for 4. A great deal. Some things I am not sure about is if the motorcycle injectors will work or if you will need the throttle bodies machined for car injectors. With some modified bikes engines producing around 180 h/p I do not see why bike injectors will not work.

    Well, I tried to upload some pics of the throttle bodies but for what ever reason I keep getting an invalid file type. Anyone know how to change the file type?

    Bill
     
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  13. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Don't remember seeing pic's of the trigger wheel . . . maybe they were lost in the server?

    Also, not seeing the throttle body pic's you're referring to.

    Sean
     
  14. Harta320

    Harta320 Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
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    Pics, check previous post. The pics of the trigger where a simple hall effect, hopefully Mark will chime in at some point.

    Bill
     
  15. pad

    pad Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2004
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    Sean,

    Just checked out your advance table. You are running some serious advance. Have you checked for any pinging? 45 degrees at 5100 rpms at partial thottle is quite agressive IMHO. Have you turned on data collection while running to check the A/F ratio?

    I've experimented with up to 42 full advance at full thottle after 7000 rpms, but now running at 34 on a 308QV with headers and almost open exhaust. You may be on to something, but I would like to suggest you move forward with caution. Others out there can advise better than me. Hopefully, they will jump in.
     
  16. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    When you say checked for pinging, I haven't heard any, but it could be a little hard to hear over the exhaust. I thought this much advance was working okay since the '81 308 had such low compression engine . . . lower than the QV maybe? Anyway, 45 total is what the manual shows at that load.

    I just looked at the QV digiplex curve and it has way less advance . . . it peaks at about 42.5 and falls off. I just flipped the page and the US qv ends up with more total advance depending on the loading . . . the QV curves are a lot more complicated in the F manual also.

    Sean
     
  17. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    One other thing that was mentioned that I'd like to get clarification on.

    I was told that the Htech O2 sensor doesn't work real good for tuning . . . got convinced I should buy one of the Innovate Motorsports wide band o2 sensors (LM1). . . Is the Htech unit acceptable for tuning? Is it really that the "regular" 2 and 3 wire o2 sensors go out of calibration? That's what "they say" is the advantage of the Innovate product . . . it "self calibrates" so you end up with more accurate data as opposed to just getting data that you may not realize is garbage.

    Thanks,

    Sean
     
  18. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Just an update . . . bought the Innovate LM-1 and "aux box" . . . this is a wideband O2 setup which I'm going to use to check out the factory map of the Bosch Kjet . . . should be interesting . . . hopefully be playing with it today.

    Sean
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    I don't know how I missed this thread for a week.

    You probably know this, but you need a home signal to run waste spark. A crank mounted sensor will do or you can cam mount....You already found that the beauty of the haltech is you can use the stock sensors, but not if you want waste spark or sequentail injection. You only have 2 trigger inputs, and if you make 1 the home, the other needs to 4 pulses per rev, but you'll only get 2 from either of the stock pickups.

    To run my waste spark and sequentail, I pulled my flywheel and installed 2 more dowel pin, so now it has 4 and I get the 4 pulses I need. For the cam sensor, I used a pickup out of a ford distributor, which is the same as an MSD pickup.

    When I had my E6K, I did it using a haltech S3 pichup with magnets mounted behind the flywheel. It was s north poles and 1 south pole (or the other way around, I don't remember) and it worked well. I had planned to keep the distributors, but I needed new caps and it was cheaper to just go to waste spark.... I don't think there is any real performance advantage.

    Right now I have a haltech E11v1 that has been a bit of trouble. I got a great deal on it because haltech recalled them and replaced them with the E11v2 because the v1 had some problems with "certain" triggers....but I haven't found a trigger it does like. It usually work great, until the engine just loses all it's power. It's very intermitant and has beed a bugger to track down, but the best I can tell, it gets confused and is advancing the heck out of the timing....enough to make it ping at idle. It's happening fequently enough now that I think I will finally be able to find it as some as I can get a scope on it. Anyway, I thought I could get the v1 to work (it was almost free, I swapped my old E6K for it), but I'm thinking that is not true and I'll need to either buy an E11v2 that does work right or maybe a motech M48. The scope will tell...as long as it doesn't start working perfectly again like it did the last time I brought the scope home from work (I just order a second scope for the lab so now if I need to keep it a week or 2 I can :) )
     
  20. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    You bring up a good point here Mark . . . going to direct fire will require:

    1. Add 2 more pins to the flywheel so the ECU gets four pulses per rev . . . it works with 2 pins now because there are two triggers . . . you have to use one of these trigger inputs (built into the E6) for the home input when going direct fire or sequential injection.

    OR

    2. Make a whole new trigger wheel to put on the cam that has the home AND trigger magnets to fire the DFI (8 or 7 plus the home). I'm trying to do the EFI conversion without too much engine tear down, so this is the route I'm thinking when I get round to hooking up the DIS 4 . . .

    These are also the reasons I decided to just use the stock distributors for now since it has required no mod's and no engine teardown so it's almost been instant gratification.

    Sean
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Sean,
    If you're still thinking about a supercharger, you can put magnets in the drive pulley.

    Pulling the flywheel and putting it back took me about 6 hours I think including driving over to work to install the extra pins.
     
  22. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    I'm probably just going to batch fire the injectors for now . . . the supercharger is "still a dream".



    Sean
     
  23. Harta320

    Harta320 Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
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    Mark, Sean ?

    I am planning on tackling this project this winter. I have talked to both of you and after reading this post a few things about the trigger setup have finally come to light. I plan on using the MSD DIS-4 with motorcycle COP. Mostly beacause if I am going EfI I am getting rid of those damn distributor caps. I understand that if I want to use the stock flywheel sensors for DIS I need to add 2 more magnets, 1 being N and 3 being S or vice versa. The question is Why? I can't find anything in the Haltech operation manual about this. Granted I could have read it and had no idea what it meant. Secondly, where should the magnets be placed in the flywheel or does it matter?

    Finally, like Sean, I really do not want to take the flywheel off if I do not have to. I did this job last winter and it was a PITA. If I have to for the ignition set up that I described above then so be it. My question is can I set up the Halech to be triggered using the Electromotive set up: 58-2t. All of the components are readily available and can easily be installed and removed. Just a little more expense. I thought I read in the Haltech manual that you could use 58-2t but like much of this EFI stuff I could be wrong. LOL Would you still need the cam sensor with this set up for DIS?

    Thanks
    Bill Smith
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    That is exactly how I originally planned to do my car, keep the distributors and batch fire the injectors, it's just so easy that way. As I said in the other post, the only reason I went waste spark was so I didn't need to buy new caps. I did run the injectors batch fire for 2 years/15 miles and it worked great, no problems at all.
     
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Bill,
    Yes you can use the electromotive type trigger with any problem, you could use the whole electromotive system too, it's quite good and several people on this forum are running it. The reason I originally choose haltech was to use the stock sensors because it seemed the simplest, but if switching to DIS is in the plan, I guess it's a wash.

    The stock crank sensors use pins on the flywheel and magnets in the sensor. The pin flying past the magnet generates electricity and the ECU reads that signal. There are 2 pins on the flywheel, and 2 sensor, making 4 pulses per revolution. With the distributors, it works fine, because the distributor times the spark to the correct cylinder.

    Without a distributor, the ECU has no way to tell which cylinder is ready to fire, it just knows it's 1 or the 8. So it needs more information. With waste spark, it fires 2 at once, one is in exhaust so the spark does nothing, but the other is in compression. With this system, the ECU only need to count 4 cylinders, because it's firing 2 at once. That means a crank mounted sensor will work. Electromotive tells the ECU where cylinder #1 is with the missing teeth, they make a different shape pulse and the ECU reads that. Then it simply counts 1, 2, 3, 4 and looks for the home signal again.

    Haltech makes a sensor the reads magnets mounted to the crank. The sensor can tell the difference between a south pole and a north pole magenet. So you install 3 or the magnets south pole out and 1 north pole out and the ECU knows where cylinder # one is.

    I am using one of the stock flywheel sensors, but I installed 2 additional pins to get 4 pulses per rev from 1 sensor instead of needing 2. Then I mounted another sensor on the cam. The cam sensor not only tells the ECU when #1 is at the top, it also tells it when #1 is at the top and on the compression stroke. The additional info is required for sequentail fuel injection or for true direct fire ignition.
     
  26. Harta320

    Harta320 Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
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    I was intially leaning towards the Electromotive TEC-3 based on the ease of set up. After really looking into many of the systems, I really like the price of the Haltech and its flexablilty. Of coarse with a MSD DIS 4 the price is about the same. The thing that I really do not like about the TEC 3 (rightly,wrongly or just stupidity) is the fact that the engine bay is cluttered with spark plug wires running everywhere. I love the clean look that the motorcycle COP setup gives the eng bay and to me is worth the hassel.

    Just so I understand correctly. If I use the 58-2 trigger wheel then I do not need a cam position sensor? I plan on using batch injector fireing.

    Thanks Mark for all your help. I am finally getting this nailed down to where I can start collecting parts for a conversion.

    Bill Smith
     
  27. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Hey Bill,

    I also think there's room to get a trigger wheel on the front of the harmonic balancer . . . some kind of sleeve could fit around the harmonic balancer bolt (which can be a pain to get out).

    You could also make the thing trigger exclusively off of a cam trigger wheel . . . you'd just need twice the triggers/magnets since the cam is turning half the speed of the crank . . . both of these options get you out of pulling the flywheel . . .


    Sean



     
  28. Harta320

    Harta320 Karting

    Nov 6, 2003
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    Hey Sean,

    Check out Nick Forza's web sight. He is a Ferrari chatt sponsor and he carries most of the adaptors for an Electromotive trigger set up for the 308 (pics where on this sight somewhere). The trigger wheel fits around the harmonic balancer (fairly simple). I think his new harmonic balancer has the 58-2 wheel already built into it. I thought you might beable to use a 58-2 wheel for the Haltech but I was never really sure. I think this set up would be fairly simple.

    Bill
     

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