Well said, but I’m not sure 8 year after his retirement, so much of the succès can be still attributed to MS. I mean one can, I personally find it a bit far fetched Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This has nothing to do with Michael's dedication or knocking him in any way. This was about his own expectations (and those of his fans) in the winter of 2010 re: the partnership of Brawn, the might of Mercedes, and the greatest driver of the age. With the hindsight of history and the technical/situational postmortem it affords, we of course better understand why it all didn't come together sooner. The point I am making...and it is the correct one...is that Michael came back to win - period. It wasn't some casual "I am coming back to help my old buddy Ross develop the car and hopefully lay the technical foundation for future success, blah, blah." Absolute codswallop. He came back (and expected) to win - whether it took 6 races of 26 races. Incidentally, I am of the strong opinion that if Pirelli hadn't effectively changed/derailed the parameters of the sport to such a degree in 2011 and beyond, we would have seen Michael's comeback end on a much more positive note.
It seems impossible to you that this driver who has won everything in his career, now older and seriously injured, finds his motivation in the project of growth of the Mercedes team? The impossibility to leave the world of the race is sometimes the strongest (cf Valentino Rossi) and has nothing to do with the certainty of being a contender for world championships.
Michael is not solely responsible of course. His influence in the team, and Ross's, is still part of the current set up. I don't like the guy much, but Toto Wolff is also hugely influential and responsible for the success of the team (in the same way he's responsible for Ross packing his bags).
Toto is a killer, he is Lewis’s brain, Hamilton just drives ( well at that) but he is not as good as the great ones at setting up a car Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Michael Schumacher in 2010 - yes, impossible. If you were to tell Michael just as he was about to put pen to paper that the sum total of driving 2010-2012 were to result in a solitary podium, he would not have signed. In regards to Rossi...like all great champions that hang on a bit too long, they sometimes can't see it from the inside. He hasn't been racing mid-pack for 2+ seasons because he is content to make up the numbers and enjoy the lifestyle - he's searching for the elusive puzzle piece - for things to magically 'click' again, enjoy an Indian summer and retire while competitive. 2021 has been a sad realization for him that this is all but impossible. Gargabe, borderline offensive trope (the 'hard working and cerebral' vs the 'naturally talented') that has dogged Lewis and coincidentally (?) athletes of a certain 'type' their entire careers.
U do know I’m one of Lewis’ big advocate, right? He is naturally talented & don’t you dare bringing up race in the discussion - this is exactly what you are eluding to and this also what is very annoying with the pro Lewis fan. Pretty shameful and low of you. The guy is great, the guy has great talent but her racing acumen has been widely helped by his current team and he is not known for being the best at setting up his car. Just look at his resume before Mercedes : exceptional driver for sure but it’s his environment that elevated him to what he is now and not the opposite. It’s widely believe that his car is one of the best ever and if not for him we could have had bottas as a multiple WDC. It doesn’t take away his level of performance OR efficiency (others likely would not have won by such margin) but it does show how great the team has been in taking to the the next level Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I didn't mean Toto is there setting up the car or anything like that (he's far removed from anything to do with engineering). He manages the whole team and makes sure everything runs perfectly. Much like Jean Todt did.
I don't care whether you're a Lewis fan or not - if you think he's "just drives" after we've seen him win races for 15 seasons straight (in literally every manner possible) you do him a great disservice. Oh? You really should not believe everything you read on this forum... it's always some anonymous 3rd hand nonsense: "My friend used to work at McLaren when Lewis was there and he said..." Yeah right. Do you honestly think the likes of James Allison/Peter Bonington would agree re: Lewis' racing brain and technical nous? The classic driver/engineering relationships have evolved completely in the last decade anyway... this is not the era of pounding around test tracks and symbiotic driver/engineer teasing the performance... is about limited track time, simulations generating and collating endless streams of data, and the cars hitting the circuit preprogrammed setups. Even Michael himself couldn't replicate what he did at Ferrari - the game had moved on, and the tools had changed. Anyway, you certainly don't have to be a racist to regurgitate all too familiar, hackneyed tropes - this is stuff is deeply ingrained. I think there should be push back when it's encountered. We heard this nonsense when Lewis was paired with the supposed cerebral "tire whisperer" Button and then Mr. Five-Languages Rosberg even when faced with starkly contradictory evidence. Lewis wins because he's 'naturally talented.' He loses because he is 'emotionally weak'...or else 'lazy'...or 'stupid' etc. Pretty disgusting. So, sorry, not sorry.
Comparing Jean Todt with Toto is absolutely spot on. Both aren't engineers but their ability to maximize human resources is extraordinary.
Whilst all you said makes a lot of sense I’m not sure what led you on this forum, or life, to be that susceptible. Ill let you think of what Lewis is not: a master at setting up his car. Like you said this skill might be less and less needed in f1 anyways. He is, by all accounts, a driver who himself said he doesn’t even like the simulator. That doesn’t mean he isn’t hardworking, simply that he might have naturally more pace than others. It’s like tiger woods, once upon a time he could hit the ball further than anyone. Was it hard work? Absolutely… would you or I hit it as far with the same training? Maybe not. That’s when natural talent comes in. Some people have « it », some even if they make it to the last echelon do not. There is nothing wrong to say that he is a natural talent, incredibly quick and that’s enough to get him so much success he deserves. Does he have Prost’s race craft? No, senna’s rain car wizardry ? No but he has tons of things those didn’t have either. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
True, it's well know that Lewis is not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to developing a car. He's much better now of course, but despite all his training he sucked big time at managing tires in his first years in f.1. W3e've also seen how insecure he can be on track when something goes wrong, if he had a messy team like Ferrari in Seb's days he would have been totally lost.
Hams achievement is extraordinary. 100 wins is ridiculous. Without question, he has been lucky that the entire F1 regs and cost control model has played to his strengths. Had he been in the sport 20 years earlier there is no way that he would have been as successful as he lacks the engineering, feedback and team building skills that someone like MSC had. He also doesn’t have the relentless work ethic that many of his predecessors had (and which isn’t needed now due to testing limitations). Is he the GOAT? Impossible to say as you can’t compare drivers across eras for obvious reasons (and hence why much of the posts in this thread are garbage). But… what we can say is that he has maximised his opportunity in this era of F1 better than anyone else and delivered amazing consistency over many many years. Could his records be broken? Probably, but it will take amazing talent, huge luck, F1 rule consistency and mega commitment over many years to do it. Fortunately, we are blessed with a grid of very impressive young drivers in a variety of teams (Merc, RB, Ferrari and McLaren) so it’s possible that someone could emerge who could challenge these records in time.
Schumacher was good at developement and was influential in starting Mercedes, but Hamilton has done more for Mercedes than Schumacher ever has. Evidently, just looking at the time frame alone shows its impossible Schumacher put in more than Lewis. Micheal started when the Mercedes was a totally different car, different engines, wheelbase, etc whole car was different. Lewis has intergrated himself with the team and engineers throughout all types of fases and engeneering changes since he joined in 2013. Lewis seen the car go through different stages a ton more than Schumacher has. Lewis as a driver has done more for Mercedes than any other. Schumacher was the best at working with engineers, that was his strenght. But he is not the only person/driver who can help build a winning team. Williams, RB, Mclaren, all had success with having drivers to help build a team around. I don't buy the 'Lewis just drives" theme. I don't think that was a option when Hamilton first started in 07 and almost won 2 championships, during that time engeneers most certainly needed feed back from drivers. Even today engineers need driver influence in build a better car, yes its certainly different than 20 years ago when Schumi was racing. But I don't think RB or Ferrari just sets up a car and tell Max to go drive it. Max has to input his own developement to make the car do what he wants. When Vettel and Leclerc were team mates its seems the cars were setup different, hence Vettel spinning.
I would agree with this statement. I might also add Hamilton has had the benefit of the addition of extra races year after year. The extra races and the dominance of Merc have surely cut the years needed, they added more races consistently since roughly 2000. So, my argument is would have reached this milestone had he needed the extra few years based on a 17/18 race season??
While I accept all are different drivers - I don't why you are so automatically so definitive on either point honestly... particularly the later given Lewis' rain affected strike-rate. I honestly wonder how much this is down to the mystique of the pre-radio/encypted-transmission era. I'm not sure what you mean by "susceptible." My motivations in regards to Lewis are - I suspect - somewhat similar to yours' when starting this thread in the first place - you don't like seeing greatness constantly devalued.
It's all relative. If you look down the list of "driver wins" or "driver % of wins vs total starts", it's clear that both Schu and Hamilton benefitted from having longevity and total # of races to drive their gaudy totals (Hamilton at 36% has the third-highest win % behind Ascari and Fangio). It more or less becomes a race against time...you have from 25-35 years old to do most of your damage (maturity-to-peak-to-decline) so the more opportunities to win, the better. From that standpoint, if Verstappen gets a car with a dominant period, he could threaten Hamilton's records. That said, it sounds like the re-working of the formula is meant to limit the chances of that happening in the next generation of cars. To answer your question, I think it would be much more difficult for Hamilton to get to 100 wins if he had to drive into his 40's to get them.
Agreed. As I have always said you don’t mistakenly become great. He has won at every level and he is a generational talent. He is by no means my favorite driver or my goat but I do agree with you that I don’t like the online bullying you can see on this platform disparaging his accomplishments. I also do agree with some of his opposition saying his achievements need to be put in perspective. He made the right choice and made the best of his decision. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This year is a cross-road to his future out of F1. The decline to me is starting now with the number of errors under pressure we see. A touch of zip is gone on the speed. Not a radical decline but its slightly apparent to me. He has not seen such pressure since Rosberg and its more formidable in Max given the RedBull is simply but marginal swift.
The errors are certainly the mark of reflex issues. He's also had several sub-par starts. Reflex/reaction time is one of the first areas you notice decline. Not radical, as you say, and he is still a brilliant driver (like Alonso) but age happens. Ocon would hardly be mentioned in the same breath as Alonso from a historical perspective, and yet he is his equal at Alpine...maybe slightly better than Fernando. I think Hamilton had plenty of pressure from Ferrari in 2017 & 2018, and he was pretty unflappable. While his car is a little unpredictable this year (versus past Mercs), I think it's a confluence of factors impacting this year. But there are errors we see this year that weren't there in the past. As I've said in a different thread, it feels very similar to Schumacher & Ferrari in 2006...(the team owns some of the errors also. Probably more than simply "some")
If Toto was a killer those arrows would be silver. He definitely picked the right teams at the right time and made the most of it. Can't argue with that. Records aside, Alonso's a better driver and some guys are faster.
Yes my thoughts Team and Driver together age and stress affect both. This is a long grind of a season. 2x under COVID and 3 races together in multiple stints. Crew and driver are stressed. The youth manage just a touch better lol! We see that in Max and others. LH is resilient, trains hard but this is real life and age matters. The variance keeps us interested for sure!
