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Hamilton deserves more respect

Discussion in 'F1' started by Natkingcolebasket69, Mar 28, 2021.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Kimi was quite a revelation when he landed in F1, still young and after only 23 races under his belt, it was said.

    That was sensational then.
     
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  3. CRG125

    CRG125 Formula 3

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    I still think Kimi is the fastest guy when he has his **** together.
     
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  4. JJ

    JJ F1 Veteran
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    Which is when, exactly?
     
  5. JJ

    JJ F1 Veteran
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    Or Badoer. :)
     
  6. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Ready for what Pedro?
     
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  8. CRG125

    CRG125 Formula 3

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    When he has his **** together.
    Like I said, when he has his **** together and not drinking his vodka. Even in the Alfa Romeo he has done some amazing stuff.
     
  9. FordGTDriver

    FordGTDriver Formula Junior
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    So, going back to the original title of this thread, I've got some seriously mixed feeling about Sir Hamilton. I've been a rabid F1 fan for decades, seen every race I could in person. I'm not much of a fanboy to any particular team or driver, although I will admit to being partial to Mansell back in the day. I should also admit that I am, at times, put off by Hamilton's non-racer-personae and peculiar fashion tastes.

    My reference to mixed feeling relates to the following: Hamilton is certainly a talented driver, but his world championships with Mercedes all have a huge asterisk over them in my mind. When the car is so overwhelmingly dominant, how much of Lewis' talent (or lack thereof) has been rendered moot? It would be a different thing altogether if he had been saddled with an inferior car and fought his way to the top. Hasn't ever been the case. Moreover, he really hasn't had a competent teammate to put any heat on him since Rosberg caused Hamilton to finish last in a two car race.

    When I think of the "greatest" drivers of all time, Sir H does not presently come to mind. I hope that changes, but for now, the only thing I know for sure is that Mercedes has absolutely owned the V6 Hybrid era. That's not been a good thing for ANYONE except Mr. Wolf. Russell's one night stand in the Mercedes in Bahrain is one of the most telling pieces of evidence in favor of my thesis. Hamilton: accomplished driver. Greatest of all time? Sadly, no. At least not yet.
     
  10. JJ

    JJ F1 Veteran
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    Nailed it.
     
  11. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    F1 Section Post of the Montho_O
     
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  13. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    ready to take on a winning car...
     
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  14. ricksb

    ricksb F1 Veteran
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    #661 ricksb, May 26, 2021
    Last edited: May 26, 2021
    I believe it's fair to say that the gaudy numbers of Hamilton & Vettel (and to a lesser extent, Schumacher) can be owed to not only having a dominant car (all WDC's have that) but also to super-reliability as well. For that reason alone, I think there can never be a "greatest of all time" driver. The eras are so different and full of so many nuances. Hamilton has dominated his era, no denying that. Hamilton has matured into a very consistent and strategic driver after his younger years as aggressive and petulant. He's much more mentally tough than the torturous year he had with the *****cat Doll chick (his worst in F1).

    I find discussions to diminish his achievements down to the "it's the car" argument a bit duplicitous. You would need to apply the same "it's the car" argument to any winner. Would Max be beating Norris, Leclerc or Russell if not for having a superior car? (I'm not saying he wouldn't, for the record. Just showing that being a top pilot in a top car doesn't mean you can't really drive) Top drivers get the best machines. The Russell anecdote is also a little flawed because a) it was a strange track configuration, b) the top drivers (Hamilton, Leclerc & Verstappen) were all missing and c) the benchmark is to Bottas, who crapped his pants in a race in which he was feeling the pressure and it showed.

    For me, at the end of the day, he has won consistently from day 1 and it's been across two teams. It's a chicken or the egg argument to say he's only won because he's never driven a bad car. How many wins does Kovaleinen have? Bottas? Rosberg? Button? How many drivers on the grid have more than the 22 wins he secured prior to Merc dominance? Give him his due...he will have tons of records which are a tribute to his ability to consistently produce results. That's what being a top driver is all about.

    I like Leclerc, Norris and Sainz. Respect for Max and Seb & Fernando. Looking forward to seeing what Russell can bring. Ocon looks like a heady driver.

    Hamilton is a great chapter in the F1 book, but I enjoy the whole story.
     
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  15. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    Very good remark.

    It's not only about Mercedes superiority, there was talent before that !
     
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  16. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    Badoer at his peak was only a mid-pack driver even in a fast car.
     
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  17. fer312t

    fer312t Formula Junior

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    Nah, just more of the same old same old, said somewhat less viciously ;)
     
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  18. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    IMO this posts reflect what many think about Lewis.

    I will add that it's not Lewis' fault that he's always had a good car (and for the majority of his career, a vastly superior car). They wouldn't stick an untalented hack in the best car as a joke. He clearly is talented. The argument RE Rosberg winning a title has often been made by the ''pro lewis'' camp that it was only because Rosberg enjoyed the use of Lewis' mechanics that year....but doesn't that mean that the other years Lewis won, it was because he apparently enjoyed superior mechanics? Bottas was clearly brought in by Mercedes as the 2nd driver and nothing more than that. Whilst annoying, I do understand doing so to a certain point (I despise the constant call outs from Lewis & co saying he wants a competent teammate, always made very shortly before the inevitable Bottas re-signing for another year, though this year is finally different with Russell having been signed already...hence the rift, lol).

    No one in the history of F1 has enjoyed a car with such a margin over it's immediate rivals for such a long period of time. Sure, Schumacher and Vettel both enjoyed very fast cars but only for a couple of seasons all in (and shorter seasons at that). Are the rival F1 teams to blame for this, or is it simply Mercedes being superior...well that's a massive tin of worms we're opening there, as of course rival teams are in part to blame for going along with certain FIA rules, I blame the FIA for a meriad of reasons for enabling such dominance and at the same time also hampering non-Mercedes teams. It's a very bizarre thing to witness especially after Ferrari and Red Bull both had their dominance cut short by FIA's interference.

    Hamilton's big asterisk in my opinion is that, even though he's always had cars capable of winning, he rarely did special things, and often didn't even look that great (see for example the button years). If we take a direct comparison to Michael Schumacher, who when he didn't enjoy very fast cars compared to the fastest teams, still managed to give proper title fights year after year, or did some insane races that truly left everyone's mouth wide open. Apart from Lewis' 2008 Silverstone, what was a race when he truly was spectacular? And even 2008 was in the title winning car...albeit not an overly dominant one, I'll give him that.

    Schumacher, in those pre-Ferrari super years, when he wasn't driving such fast cars....absolutely destroyed his teammates, much like for example Max has been doing. We are meant to believe that Mercedes suddenly doesn't have the fastest car anymore, and that Lewis has re-engaged another gear to stay ahead of Verstappen, but the evidence is starting to point to the contrary. The Mercedes is the fastests car, certainly over a race distance, and probably in qualifying. Verstappen continues his dominance over his teammates whereas LH and Bottas are remarkably close in both race and quali. If we look at the real data and forget looking at wikipedia results (which don't include taking into account extra pitstops for fastests laps, slow pitstops etc), it appears that either Bottas has stepped up a gear...Lewis is driving the car as fast as possible (one assumes anyways, given the fact he has to defend from Max!), and Bottas, whilst a little bit behind, is quite close. The larger gap between the two is mostly explained by extra stops from Bottas to get the extra point and long pitstops....Whereas if we look at Max, he is not only comprehensively beating his teammate by much bigger margins, but taking the fight to Mercedes/Lewis on his own (Perez not close enough to stop Mercedes enjoying a much wider pit window). If he is the GOAT this is all a bit inexplainable to me.
     
  19. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Rookie

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    Agree but this is against the official propaganda.
    Be careful you will soon be classified as a hater !( or worse..);)
     
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  20. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 Veteran
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    Vettel had the best car 4 years he won, Schumacher 5 years at Ferrari too let’s no kid ourselves.

    But Schumacher was world champion twice in an inferior car. Not many can say the same


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  21. JJ

    JJ F1 Veteran
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    I don't mind. I say what I think and let the chips fall wherever they may. ;)
     
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  22. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Perhaps the word I was looking for is dominant. Vettel had a dominant 2011 and 2013. Schumacher had dominant cars in 2002 and 2004. Vettel certainly didn't have dominant cars in 2010 and not really in 2012 either...But the cars (Schumachers 2000-2001-2003) and Vettel (2010-2013) where the best, with their competitors at the time being only very slightly behind or very slighty ahead. If that makes sense?
     
  23. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

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    IMO its what you do with the car you drive. That Mercedes you speak of has always had 2 drivers. Only one driver is multiple world champion. Another habbit i noticed is people looking at only part of Hamiltons career. He had many wins and was a WDC before he went to Mercedes. There has been seasons and races where the Mercedes was not dominant, Hamilton still won. A great driver will shine in any car. When you say "its the car" you are basically degrading every special performance Schumi or Senna etc did in a top car. At one point Hamilton won every wet race for 5 years straight, he has won 90% of his wet races. No other driver in history has done this. A great driver will shine in any car. Fangio always drove top cars, is Fangio great?
     
  24. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 Veteran
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    Schumacher 94 title is far far far more impressive than any of Hamilton’s title though


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  25. JJ

    JJ F1 Veteran
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    Schumacher also truly led the team and made both the team and the car better than they would otherwise be. Look at Ferrari before and since. Can you say the same about Hamilton?
     
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  26. Bas

    Bas Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I found 95 incredibly impressive as well. Though he won a lot, that car was far from easy to drive...I remember both Berger and Alesi driving that car and they where utterly convinced something was broken on it, set ups wrong and whatnot. The car would go into an aerodynamic stall that was incredibly difficult to predict or handle...Herbert was utterly destroyed by Michael that year. That car had no right to be fighting at the top, let alone win the championship. 1997 was surely one of Michael's top seasons also. That Ferrari was so slow compared to the Williams. Same goes for 1998 when he took the title to the wire in a car that was easily half a second a lap behind the Mclaren...
     
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  27. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    That is...IF Schumacher's 1994 car was legit; doubts remain...Senna himself thought that the '94 Benetton was not legit.

    Rgds
     
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  28. ktu

    ktu Formula 3

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    Absolutelty NOT in IMO ! Senna passing gave Schumacher along with others a leg up. If Jordan got injured and the Pistons won the championship, the Pistons championship is tainted. IF Senna had lived that season, and Schumi still won, it would be another story. If Kimi had passed in 2007 Hamilton would have won his rookie year.
     

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