How do you know this ? Only your own hypothesis. Mine is that Max is the best driver of the whole field since Monaco 2018..
He could win all gps in one season and still it might not tell you anything! I never understood this lack of ability to see a drivers worth beyond the car drives! Is Max doing a good job? Yes, an exceptional job, Yes?, Is he a top driver in the current grid? No doubt. Is he driving the best car? Yes he is. is he faster than his team mate? Yes.Is he the best? Maybe, we can't be sure. (given he's got the fastest car, and that it never breaks, and that he's better than his team mate, the logical outcome would be for him to win every single race. If Senna wasn't paired with Prost, that's what he would have done in 88, or vice-versa....Is Charles doing a great championship? Not really, would he be doing better if he was driving a car as good as Max? For sure. With equal equipment and suport from their teams wich one would win? I honestly don't know, i would put my money on Charles, why? Because i believe he's faster and equaly talented when it comes to straight figth and driving talent....but i'm ok with many other saying max is better, i just think that it's impossible to know. Based on what i saw every time they both had similarly competitive cars (some races in 2019 and some in 2022), they look real close to me.
I am a cartesian; I base my opinion on facts, not hypothesis. Only what happens is of interest to me, not what may have been. I have no emotional attachment towards one driver or the other to clould my judgement. I cannot even imagine a different scenario than the championship we have, where some drivers would be on "equal" cars to compare their talent. It doesn't happend, so it doesn't exist; so why entertain those ideas?
Why watch then? If "facts"are all you care about, just buy the "Autocourse" at the end of the season and you're ready to go! I have a brain, i have eyes, and i watch, therefore i can reach many more conclusions from my observation than the results showing by the end of the race. Your aproach would tell you that Ocon is a better driver than Alonso, because he scored more points last year while driving the same car....watching the races would tell you that Alonso had many more DNFs that were solely the team's fault, and that when his car didn't break, he was by far the better of the two drivers. So in this case, the points tally is completly irrelevant to determine wich of the two is the beter driver. I could use the same logic for Charles and Carlos in 2021, os for Mika and Coulthard in 2000, and so on and so on.... And these are not conjectures, they are facts, just as real as the sheet with drivers total scores that you so much praise.
No. In fact I factor DNFs in my analysis when I appraise a driver. But I wouldn't speculate if a driver would be faster in an identical car than his main rival (Leclerc v. Max), because it doesn't happend. That's also why I consider comparing drivers from different eras, different formulae, different point scoring systems and racing in different circumstances rather ludicrous. This is pub talk, not based on any logical thinking.
I don't believe they do. In fact, I believe the data proves the best version of Max is significantly better than the best version of Lewis. But we aren't talking about what I think and why. I am simply asking what basis @paulchua has. If you (or anyone else) would like to share your basis too, I wouldn't mind hearing it. I would expect more than just "the numbers speak for themselves".
You mean if I don't accept the results for how you see them? I guess being argumentative rather than stating your position was a better option. In something like 8 hours, neither have you, or anyone else that believes the best Lewis is better than the best Max can put together a fact based reasoning. Can anyone? I don't even want to debate it, I just want to know on what basis does someone come to that conclusion.
I mostly agree with you, but the history of Formula 1 is littered with stories about feats that were performed by drivers, and comparing those among contemporaries is far from being illogical when discussing and debating raw ability qualitatively.
So now the fight is that the "best" Lewis is not as good as the "best" Max? How in the world are you (or anyone else) planning on proving THAT? Oh right, "data points" (for you).
I'm not trying to prove it. I am just asking why anyone believes best Lewis is better than best Max. To me this is a very simple yet nobody seems to have any logical reason. Not even any illogical reason.
Much like Vettel he speaks out on human rights issues, environmental issues etc I'm not coming down on either side, the older people among us want a "shut up and drive" attitude, the younger people tend to like someone with a progressive ideology. And ultimately our opinions are completely invalid, if someone on the current grid openly says Lewis has been instrumental in opening doors for the younger generation and improving the sport then that must be given some serious weight. As I said, watch the interview with Gasly - it's pretty clear how he feels
Many reasons why Sir Lewis Hamilton is thought by many to be better than Max. Hamilton beat WDC team mates. Hamilton is proven to win in different cars. 15 years ago and also this hybrid era. Sir Lewis Hamilton won with two different teams. Sir Lewis Hamilton did'nt have the advantage of both mom and dad and uncle being racers like Max.
Wouldn't it be awesome if someone put them in identical cars for a grudge match - screw PPV boxing, this is what I'd pay for haha
You know that this, like all of these silly dreamed up scenarios, is totally an opinion. The guys are 13 years apart. It’s like arguing over the 1990’s Bulls verses the current Warriors. As far as who’s better…”Best” Max or “Best” Lewis…no one knows but we all know how these opinions will fall. Complete with snippets of this stat or that data point to prove the poster’s brilliance and the other guy’s ineptness. “Lies, dam lies, and statistics”
Good question, Put another way, say the current Max was transported back in time to the 2014-2020. Truth? I don't know. It's hard to compare drivers from different time periods. Push comes to shove though, I would put still Ham on top until Max has some more championships under his belt.
@paulchua flat out said it. You said Max overtook Lewis in 2021, which is says you believe at least Lewis was better than Max. Plus the millions of fans that say Lewis is the best ever. So plenty of reason to know many believe it.
Being in the same team would work. Setup matters in F1 or Indy car so the cars can be setup dramatically differently based on their own preference. As long as the parts on the car is the same, they weigh the same, have the same power unit, and of course tires... it would be a fair comparison.
