Hamilton deserves more respect

I have. Bottas in 2018.

Besides, Perez is having a very bad season, but his speed is the same as always. People raved about Perez in 2021, but he was 4-5 tenths slower. Now he is still 5 tenths slower and people say he is horrible. He is and has always been around the level of Bottas.

One of the biggest factors to Perez being in 2nd place is that the 2nd best team has fluctuated many times over the season. Aston Martin 2nd best to start, Alonso was right there. Then they dropped to 5th or 6th and Alonso has no shot at 2nd. Ferrari has had times of being the 2nd best car, podiums for both Leclerc and Sainz. McLaren went from one of the worst team to the 2nd best team, and now Lando is grabbing podiums. Meanwhile Mercedes has maintained the 2nd or 3rd best car all season long, and Lewis has been very consistent at getting results and he is now battling for 2nd in the championship. Meanwhile the Red Bull has been the best car, or there abouts every single race.

How many 1-2 qualifying results have RBR had this season? How many 1-2 finishes? How many double podiums even? These stats will show how dominant a car is, especially when it involves overrated drivers like Perez and Bottas.

I will never say the Red Bull RB19 isn't the best car of 2023, but how much better it is than all the other cars simply is not as great as many want to believe.

 

Bottas never looked as bad as Perez. Never. Show me where Bottas did as poorly as Perez. Bottas never missed as many Q3s. And never made as many mistakes and penelties bro. Never. Never looked as bad as Perez. Not even close. And I don't even care for Bottas. But I'm not gonna let you sit here and lie and say he drove worse as Perez. You can't just make up stuff to make Max look good. No need. I don't know why you all making up stuff to make Max look good. The RB is way above the field. The Merc was way above the field certain seasons. I don't need make up stuff for Sir Lewis Hamilton to try to make him look good. Even with Perez driving, the car is so far above competition he is still leading all other manufactures in the championship.

 

I see you once again failed to present any facts even though I directly suggested you go look. No surprise.

You claim that Perez is driving like Latifi and simply ignore my facts and then have the audacity to suggest I am lying.

Here are some more facts you can gag on. Mercedes had the best car in 2018, a dominant car at the end. They had 7 1-2 qualifying results in 21 races, 13 poles in total. They had the fastest car without a doubt. Yet somehow Bottas finishes 5th in the championship behind 2 Ferrari drivers and of course Max. If he was in traffic, he couldn't move forward, and this is when Mercedes still had a sizable power advantage. Is it as bad as Perez 2023? Maybe, maybe not. The point is he had a lousy season for the car he had.

A dominant car, yes. But there might only be 3 or 4 drivers on the grid that could properly dominate the season, otherwise they would have to fight hard to win races even in that car.

 

So you still hadn't showed me where Bottas failed qualify embarrassingly multiple times and made multiple mistakes like Perez. Even Sir Lewis Hamilton trailed Vettel in points during the season. Again, unfair to Bottas and a insult to claim he performed like Perez.
Looking at this season, do you think Perez is performing below average or above average?

 

Below his own standard because of his mistakes. His speed is about the same as it has always been.

Now lets see you finally do some work on your argument. Find all the races Perez failed to qualify into Q3. Let us know the delta between 1st and him, the final move on position (10th or 15th) and him, and the delta between him and Max. Same session only, not Q1 vs Q3 for example. I look forward to seeing the results.

 

That's a joke, right?
(The part about the RB19 isn't "that much better")
Do I think Max is faster (cars being equal) than Hamilton at this point in their careers? Yes. But to suggest that the RB19 isn't THE class of the field is just foolishness and you know it.
Perez has s**t the bed for the over half the season...that's on him and to suggest that HE (Perez) is actually representing the RB19's strengths (or lack of)...you can't believe that...can you?

Since you love to deal in coulda/woulda/shouda, if, for the 2023 season, Hamilton's in the RB19 and Max is in the W14, who would win the 2023 WDC? Don't let your disdain for Hamilton cause a stupid answer...

 

Perez's decline started at Singapore(Race 17) when he hit 2 drivers and it went progressively downhill from there.

 

Read through what I said again. I said that RB19 is the best car of 2023, I said that it is a dominant car. Though I have also said the car isn't actually as far ahead of all the rest as people want to believe.

 

I thought this was a 'Hamilton deserves more respect' thread????

 

RB19 is a rocketship.
Period.
Add to this a perfect reliability and one of the all time great driver and you obtain the 2023 season.
Perez is just mentally destroyed by Verstappen and underperformed badly this year.

 

Respectfully disagree on the later part.

 

What I mean is there are a lot of folks that are putting the RB19 at the very top of all time greatest cars. Based on the data we have available, I don't agree with that. I don't think it's close to the level of dominance the 2014-16 Mercedes, or the F2004, or the MP4-4. Perez is proving that anyone equal or better than him could win the championship in that car. But he is also proving that not just anyone could dominate each and every race with it. If Aston Martin maintained it's early season form, Perez would likely be 4th in the championship this season.

 

I get your valid point.
That would means Max is close to be an alien..
I guess he’s very very good but not that good .

 

He qualifies as an "alien" in the sim racing world. Does that count?

 

This is the correct take.
Max is absolutely singular in terms of performance at the moment, but to suggest that Hamilton isn't of a very similar if not equal level on his day isn't correct.

I do think Max is the better driver of the two at the moment. given his relentless performance the last few seasons, but if Mercedes rock up with a car that suits him, Lewis will be able to out-drive the performance of the car and give us a fantastic title fight.

The RB19 is without question the best car on the grid, but credit absolutely needs to be given to Max's robotic consistency, as contrasted against Perez falling apart at the seams.

The bottom line is, we are lucky to have these two drivers in the sport at the moment. F1 would be far poorer without either of them.

 

So you admit that Perez can drive below average and still win the championship in the RB. Thats a heck of a statement for the RB. Think about if Max had a teammate that drove above average how the RB will look.
Why are you changing the subject from Perez vs Bottas to Perez vs Max? We already know Max constantly is faster than him. No need to look at their delta to prove the RB is a dominant car. You and I already stated that a driver can drive the RB below average and still beat everybody else.

 

Which shows the 7 time WDC is a LOT better racer than Sergio Perez…silly me, I thought that was already a given.

 

Max is dominating so it must be the car is unbeatable. Perez sucks in the same car so he must be at Latifi levels of skill now. Yeah that makes sense. Of course you don't even bother providing any factual data.

 

I'm reminded of the telemetry data from earlier this season, showing Hamilton inexplicably lifting as Verstappen passed

Gotta support that narrative, after all, about Verstappen's utter dominance this season ... it's the car, not the driver!

YES, the Red Bull is the best car this season. But it's not as far ahead in performance as many would like to believe. That ENORMOUS gap in the WDC that Verstappen has over everyone, including the other driver in the same car, might actually be explained (mostly) by ... wait for it ... wait ... Verstappen's talent as an F1 driver! Shocking, I know. Crazy conclusion, this.

 

Why are you all so scared to say the RB is dominant? Why is the word dominant and bad word now? Here is the data on Perez and RB beating all others:
https://www.espn.com/f1/standings

 

+1 this is the SEASON that is the EPITOME of domination. Anyone not thinking or seeing that can go enjoy lawn bowling LOL!

 

Here's another shocker ...

It's entirely possible to acknowledge that the Red Bull is, indeed, the best car this season ... but ALSO recognize that Verstappen's talent takes Red Bull's dominance to an entirely different level.

It doesn't have to be one OR the other ... it might actually be one AND the other. Yep, some of our brains are complex enough to process, and accept, both thoughts at once

 

omg dude. You're done.

 

I don't mind your brain processing both thoughts. My problem is why your brain wait until Max start winning before it start processing multiple thoughts.

 

It occurs to me that we have a points system across multiple races, enough races in a season that a statistical analysis could give some strong clues to help settle the endless "driver vs car" debate.

Statistics 101: expected value and variance. Determining expected values for a season is easy: top driver in the best car is "expected" to get 25 points per race, teammate is "expected" to get 18 points per race. Best driver in second best car is "expected" to get 15 points, etc etc. For constructor "expectations", as we all know, we simply add points pair-wise. These are "expected values" only, of course.

Real data, naturally, will show significant "variance" to these "expectations". But i'm thinking that the variances to the expected values might tend to shed some light on the "driver vs car" debate.

I'm too lazy (and just don't care enough) ... has this already been done?