Hamilton vs. Rosberg - the educated (?) debate

These threads, Hamilton vs Rosberg, Vettel vs everybody, change nothing. In this case, Hamilton fans will support Hamilton, right or wrong. Rosberg fans will support Rosberg, again right or wrong.

Wasting our reality time.

 

Forget the articles ricksb, from the press people I know today, Alonso very much dislikes Hamilton. Nothing has changed from their days at McLaren.

Why would it? Suddenly, they are friends? Hamilton was the reason Alonso left McLaren.

Nothing to do with racism? I think racism for skin color is unlikely, but more because Hamilton is English speaking. How many times in Spain I was asked if I were English, like my pathetic version of true English was not remotely recognized. No help or cooperation, they disliked me and they did know me, I was English. And I even spoke with a Castilian accent. Spaniards align with French, Germans, anything but English speaking.

 

The thread title said "educated debate". As one of the only people on this forum that makes arguments based on facts I thought I was being welcomed in. Guess not. Guess I'm still a pariah on these forums.

 

You're much closer to the press so I'll defer to your knowledge. I do remember the Spanish fans being far less than hospitable to LH and had a similar issue during the Olympics. I can accept that you have better expertise on this one. After all, only a fool tells the press how they really feel about anything.

 

Toil, I think the issue is in your expectations of this forum. I think we all respect varying opinions, diversity and dissension when debating F1. Clearly there are those of us on the Hamilton side of things and more on the Nico side (which is probably more related to the "passions" of the Hamiltonians). However, I have already conceded that people rarely switch sides, so I post my opinions more as something to be considered versus a battle against someone on the other side of the matter.

Trust that I understand how you feel but these issues are always a matter of perspective. When Ham hit Massa in Singapore, half felt he purposely took out Felipe, the other half felt Felipe slowed down and caused the issue. I've defended Senna in the crashes with Prost, but I can concede that the people who criticize him heavily have just cause.

It's never really a black/white thing in racing...it's always a matter of perspective. Our guy just happens to be getting the worst of it, so it kinda sucks.

 

But you're not quoting facts...that's the problem. You're quoting your opinion AS fact.

 

Yes ricksb I guess I shouldn't try and change peoples opinions. It just seems so obvious to me but I guess racing and who people are fans of and how they view them is grounded in emotion rather than logic (sadly).

So it's my opinion that in all races that nico and lewis have both started in a comparable grid position, finished and had what was documented to be a clean weekend that lewis has won them all?

That looks like a fact to me.

Or how about the fact that nico couldn't pass a back marker who had no drs whilst on fresher tires but lewis did the same in a lap or so?


Though I guess you're just trolling lol as always.

 

+1

Now, back to the debate.
If we agree that rosberg has now established himself on track as one who is not to be pressured what comes next? There will inevitably be more contact between the Mercs but the faster driver/car on a given day should still take the race. Will team orders follow qualy results? Will the team stop sharing data between drivers (HAM's complaint) once the constructors championship is locked?

 

Oh now *I'M* the troll?

I'm explaining that you don't know that Nico didn't have problems with his car, but didn't cry about them like Lewis does.

So no, it's not an opinion about where they finished, obviously, but your reasons are.

You'd like everyone to believe, as I said 10 times, that every time Lewis finishes ahead of Nico it's because Lewis is better, but every time Nico finishes in front of Lewis, it's because Nico cheated or Lewis had car trouble.

You don't and can't know that.

I think their performances are too close to give a clear indication of any superiority by either.

How do you know, for example, that every time Nico has lost out to Lewis, he hasn't had some issue with his car that he's had to drive around?

Take the brake issue in Canada. They both had the same problem, but Nico beat Lewis. Why?

Likewaise, maybe Nico also had a brake glazing issue at Spa qualy as Lewis, but since he got pole, why complain and cry about it like Lews did?

You just don't know...and that defines why what you say is opinion.

 

I think you look at this from your perspective too much. Germany is a very traditional country (less so now but all the men in power are), and the board of Mercedes is a traditional bunch of over 50's who do not identify themselves with hipness. They want their poster boy to be their ideal son-in-law, not their nightmare son-in-law. Mercedes has never been a hip brand in Europe. I have not seen one commercial or ad that indicates that they are going after the market you say they are. And let us not forget the national pride thing. A German in a German car? The first German to win the F1 championship in a German car? You can bet Mercedes want Rosberg to win. Whether they would act on that, is another matter.


Onno

 

+1

Ham had a poor-ish exit through eau rouge.

+1

 

First it didn't even occur to me that MB would prefer Hami, mostly for the reasons you name. Then I read a column by an F1 insider from car neutral Switzerland making the point about Hami and then I started thinking: true, Germans isn't their priority, it is the big world including mainly the US and here Hami fits the glove whereas Rosberg is an unknown

 

FWIW I find the racial/nationalistic comments in this thread a bit misguided, very presumptuous and perhaps reflective of some people's bias

But I digress, back to the "educated(?)" element of the thread

1) I think both are great drivers, Hamilton can be the more inspired driver. He's more of a pure racer; while he does have the best car on the grid, his numerous "charge from the back" races are impressive.

2) from a marketing perspective, Lewis fits right into some of the target market demos - perhaps not the typical Bernie/FOM/F1 demos, but certain demos like trash-talking athletes, urban styling. The F1 media devours the politics and controversy and it draws attention. I don't know what Mercedes wants, but it adds to the (side)show. Personally I'm a purist and I like the racing, these side shows not so much. Right or wrong, Lewis seems to be a whiner and tends to point the finger a lot.

3) opinion - Lewis does have a track record of not working well with teammates, or even his team. Is it Prima Donna ego? No matter, would seem that it does distract him at times and the same things that make him capable of real passionate driving also force him to make mistakes. He was superb raw talent, the question is whether he can channel that into the maturity of a champion.

4) the incident at Spa? The team could argue Rosberg charged too soon and that move was risky (it was). Then again, it's a race and most F1 races are decided in the first few corners. I do not think he purposefully hit Hamilton. The more likely result was Rosberg would lose his front wing, trash his tires and lose more.

5) championship? it's still wide open. Rosberg is quick, but clinical. If he races clean and continues to have a car that is a wide margin over other teams, he's in good shape. If Hamilton can keep his head on straight and not spiral down (which he has done before), his raw speed and intensity should give him a steep but climbable path to the WDC.

 

Just for fun...

Does this battle prove that MS still had it at 40? After all he performed well against Nico and Nico seems to have at least equal footing to Hamilton.

 

Yes I'am a fan of Hamilton, big deal.

How you can assume I'am not a race fan is beyond me, as Hamilton love him or hate him is one of the best and most exciting drivers to watch race, and most talked about on here, and has provided us with the most exciting racing this season, fighting his way from the back on numerous occasions.

So how you can come to that conclusion is a personal insult to me.

However as you are a fan of Massa, I can only assume you are a fan of being proven wrong, as I have done on numerous occasions, I can and will dig out your posts on the matter if you continue with this line of thought ok. .

So to summarize and make it clear to you, I'am a fan of racing and fair play with consistent and clear rulings, I admire Hamiltons style of driving and only wish I had half the talent he has behind the wheel.

I do not hate any driver, I dislike some and really rate others, Alonso brilliant, Ricci totally amazing this year, if either of them and a good hand full of others win races this year, they would more than deserve it, especially Massa's team mate.

As far as I am concerned, every since Hamilton started out in F1 you have been bleating on about his maturity, and how he needs to grow up, well maybe you will happy when he retires, because he will never be up to your intellectual standard will he?. Afterall he is only a multi millionaire racing driving, being paid for doing something I'd do for free.

 

For some reason I'm wondering if Mercedes, or their drivers, should just make an agreement like Senna/Prost allegedly had at one time: "whoever gets to the first corner first goes on his way and the other driver will stay behind".

But then that didn't work so well on the restart at Imola either!

 

A fair post, I don't agree wholeheartedly with it, but a good fair balanced post.

 

Great point.

 

Hamilton will take the win in Abu Dhabi and get 50 pints beating Rose berg by a few points to take the championship.

This nonsense has been scripted. Formula 1 has become a lot of Entertainment Wrestling in the USA. It used to be called WWF and now it has many names like WWE.

If you take the two Hamilton and Roseberg, hands down there is no debate Hamilton is a better racer.

Roseberg is hungry and desperate for this title. He knows he will never get a better shot at the title than this. He is willing to do anything to get the title.

The incedent on lap 2 at Spa between Hamilton and Roseberg was clearly Roseberg's fault. But thats part of being in the championship lead. To hold on to the lead such tactics are deployed by those hungry enough to win the championship by any means necessary.

The script however says Hamilton wins the titlle WWF1 2014!

 

Well, either that or MS was well past it and neither Nico nor Lewis are any good at all.

Take your pick.

 

Your stretching it there, one thing annoys me and your not the only one that uses it, the phrase how do you know you wasn't there ect, yes your correct in one sense, but to infer folk cannot make a statement or assumption because they were not there is nonsense IMO, somethings are blatantly obvious, but denied at the time, so to dismiss everyones opinions in that manner is also not correct IMO.

For example if I had said, I believe Nelson Piquet Jnr had crashed deliberately to allow Alonso to win in Singapore, would you have stated this was a ridiculous notion/statement because I wasn't there, and how would I know.

On that occasion half the bloody paddock knew something was fishy, but that boneheaded clown Mosley, did not even have the telemetry checked out at the time, or maybe he did and knew, but let it ride, that's until NPJ stuffed it down his neck, because he was sent packing.

And in fact if we continued this line of reasoning there would be no point in having a forum, to discuss it.

 

Every post over here is a personal opinion that can be discussed as there might be others agreeing or with different opinions. This is how a discussion works but unfortunately there are a few people over here that do not present their post as an opinion but as undeniable facts and this is how a discussion (and a forum) does not work...

Even more important: to take advantage for the sales one needs a poster child that can work with the media and whereas Hamilton is very well present whatever he does Rosberg is rather pale (and I do not mean the colour of his skin ;-) )

 

Yes I know that, however maybe I 'am being more sympathetic to folk I feel are on that learning curve, as I have said before, I believe the poster being referred to, is relatively a young newbie.

And we have all been there, unless you were hatched as adult..

 

So how do YOU know Nico didn't have brake glazing issues? They had the same brake problem in Canada, so why not?

My point is that none of the Lewis fans ever admit that maybe Nico might have had problems on the days he was beaten by Lewis because that doesn't suit them.

According to Lewis fans, only his car ever has problems.

 

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Best, Sammy
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