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HANS Device?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by redcar1, Feb 17, 2005.

  1. redcar1

    redcar1 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    625
    austin, tx
    Full Name:
    Mark
    I'm going to try to race a few more weekends this year, and I’ve been thinking more about safety. Are any of you using HANS devices in club racing? Any words of advice?

    Comfort?
    Restrictive?
    NASA/SCCA Discount?
    Lightweight "Pro" +$275?
    Helmet install turnaround time?

    Thanks.

    Mark McKenzie
     
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  3. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    3,160
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    Keith Verges
    I use HANS and it it not at all uncomfortable, the install for helmet is now DIY if you like. I use the quick-release helmet tethers, as you cannot turn your head very far and they may make getting out of a car in an accident easier. IMO it is th eonly proven head restraint device and a very important $1000 to spend.
     
  4. redcar1

    redcar1 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    625
    austin, tx
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Keith,
    Thanks. Do you wear the same device in your FM & SM?
    Would you use for lapping, if you're in a street car w/4,5or6 points?
    Mark
     
  5. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    Mark, I have ordered a HANS for club racing & Grand Am Cup. Should be here in a week or two. You are welcome to inspect it after I install the posts in my helmet.
     
  6. thomasmurphy

    thomasmurphy Rookie

    Dec 14, 2003
    36
    I have had a HANS for the past couple years. It does take a bit to get used to but that passes quickly. Strongly agree with the quick release option. I need a new helmet and would not consider a DIY but will send the device and helmet back for re-fit.
    On the whole a very good idea for any track time.
     
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  8. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest


    Tom, why would you not consider DIY?
     
  9. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,180
    I've used a HANS in formula cars and sedans, no problem. Quick release: yes. Extra $$ for carbon fiber: no, IMO, not worth it. Installation: my thinking was, it's an expensive helmet and a critical piece of safety equipment, I'll just let the pros do the installation. Turn around was a few days when I had mine installed.

    Depending on your harnesses, you might need a sternum strap - you'd have to ask the HANS folks about that. I've noticed that in a few cars, the harnesses seem like they might slip off the HANS - not a great feeling.
     
  10. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    I have a HANS device with the quick release tethers.

    The difference between the regular and the one referred to as "carbon" (they are both carbon fiber composite) is the regular one is the original design which has the lifecycle of a helmet (if involved in a crash, back to the maker for inspection/replacement IIRC) and the lightweight one which has a far more limited lifespan and is marginally lighter.

    Installing the posts on the helmet is easy and takes about 40 minutes for a first timer if you have the tools- a drill with the right bit, a flexible straight edge/ruler, some masking tape and a pencil. If you can't do it or have an aversion to drilling helmets, a local helmet reseller can usually do the work for a nominal fee. In Chicago, Northstar Motorsports and F.A.S.T. can do the work. F.A.S.T. also does fresh air systems.

    I use the HANS religiously when driving on the track with a 5-6 point harness. Basalar/basilar skull fractures are very possible with 5-6 point harnesses and can happen in collisions even without the additional weight of a helmet. If you use a 4 point harness you will not utilise the HANS device properly and stand the risk, in any case, of submarining whether you use a HANS device or not. In addition you have to determine if your shoulder harness mount points are within the required maximum spacing- if the shoulder straps are mounted too far apart they will slip off the HANS device. If a 5-6 point harness is not used in a car, I recommend driving with the standard DOT 3 point seat belt.
     
  11. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    Will, thanks.

    Tom, thanks for your PM....lol !!!
     
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  13. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2003
    1,535
    Hong Kong, Tokyo
    Full Name:
    Wayne
    Agree with Nick that shoulder belt anchor point is very important. Must be close enough so that the belts sit over the HANS yoke properly.

    I have used the HANS in Formula car racing for 1 year now. I got used to it after just 1 practice session. Highly recommend it.

    Think of it this way. You use seat belts to hold your body back, so why wouldn't you use the HANS to hold your head back instead of using your neck as the tether?
     
  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    21,155
    socal
    Get all the real info from the websites and be careful what you read as user opinion. That said here is my user opinion. I use HANS rpo CF model and Isaac. Both cost about a grand. Why? well...the Isaac IMO is a better designed device. It has physics behind it. The Isaac is a velocity dependant device. See isaacdirect.com. and a position dependant device. The HANS is only position dependant. Isaac uses two dampners like shock absorbers connected on rollers to the shoulder harness which are ultimately connected to the helmet. These dampners are along the axis of your neck mucles and act to fortify their action. The Isaac make biomechanical sence. If you had enough duct tape you could tape your head to your seat back and thus you have a HANS! You can use the Isaac with expoy resin to your helmet to not void helmet warantees or bolt the Isaac to your helment. If you hit soft with your Isaac the device is smart and the dampners lock with less vigor. If you hit hard the dampners lock right up just like your shocks do in your car. At the ultimate end of the shock travel the device is only position dpendant like HANS. The cons are 1) very few people use them 2) SCCA is considering a rule to make HN restraint devices manadatory but remvoeable by only the single relase of the harness mechanisim of the seat belts. This is not final and the Isaac may get a wavier. 3) Isaac is inconvenient to use when multiple drivers, some not using Isaac. run in the same car as in during an enduro event. Isaac does not interfere with your emergency exit from a car as it has quick release function as part of the design.

    HANS, is the standard. NASCAR and F1 has embraced it and so it is the defacto standard. More high profile guys have crashed and lived with HANS so then again they win. The device is position dependant like your head tethered by a rope. You hit... and your head is just a yoyo at the end of a string. It is a stupid device that acts pretty much like the neck/back support you would wear if you pogo sticked your head in a sandbar while surfing. It is low tech. You MUST use a 5-7 point harness to make it work. 2005 all HANS have wing lips like the original patent to hold the shoulder belt so it does not slip. Additionally, the HANS specifc schroth 2"-3" harness system is a sactioned acception that was design just to use with HANS where the 2" part minimizes slipping with the older production 2004 and earlier HANS still in use.
    The advantage to HANS is 1) most crash data 2) does not interfere with shared cars during enduro events. 3) best for instructors who go in and out of lots of cars. HANS big negative is more difficult to get out of cars especially when you can hang up on windownets. All HANS users should have window nets that release from the top of the roll cage but this does not help if you are upside down. There are HANS quick release tethers but that negates the SCCA desire to have one release for the entire harness and HN system. Final negative is the lack of velocity dependance in the HANS design. IS that important? Who knows not enough people of high worth like Schmacher have used the Isaac and lived to tell about it. But the Isaac theory is superior IMO. Another huge HANS problem is that you need differnt HANS for different car seating positions. You need an upright HANS for upright seatpositions like in the 360 C but reclinded HANS for formula cars with reclined seating. Isaac works with all seat types with 5+ point harness.

    Also, while you are at it when your 5 points are out of date go to 6 points or 7points. They are superior in the anti submarine effect. Those of you who use 5 points with stock seats with no bottom seat hole are fooling yourself into serious injury. It is absolutely critical to have the 2-3 point sub belt hold the lap belt in place and hold your pelvis in place. The single sub in the 5 point only holds the lap belt in place. Your pelvis flys free. Thus if you want your HN restraint to work at it max efficiency you need to go to 6-7 point harness. The less you move in your harness then better the HN system works.

    So I use Isaac99% of the time in my one dedicated track car. I use HANS when I am a passenger or drive someone elses car.

    YMMV
     
  15. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    Thanks, Bob. That is great info on the Isaac system!
     
  16. Pole Position USA

    Oct 13, 2004
    24
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Full Name:
    Victor Barreira
    Hello guys,

    Just want to give you a little bit more info.

    There are new helmets available from Arai and Sparco that come from factory predrilled for the Hans Device tethers,
    (I have never been fond of the idea of drilling a hole on the side of the helmet to install the hardware, there is always a possibility that in case of an impact, a crack could start from that drilled hole).

    Some of you are correct, sometimes the 3" shoulder straps slide from the hans device, to take care of that Schroth harnesses makes a 2" shouder harness that is race legal and fits better.

    Also Recaro is the only company that developped with Hans Device a seat that was specially designed for drivers wearing that device. It is called the Recaro Profi Hans.

    You will find pictures of these products on our website,
    Let's have fun on the track, but let's make it safe

    I am available if any of you has any questions

    Thanks
    Victor
     
  17. thomasmurphy

    thomasmurphy Rookie

    Dec 14, 2003
    36
    Very illuminating. Now I know the world is really flat rather than round.
     
  18. BOYRACER

    BOYRACER Karting

    May 9, 2004
    111
    I just ordered mine! Should have done it a year ago but maintnace and other safety work like a cage cost a fortune! I would say it is a must for safety. I hope I adapt to it pretty easily.
     
  19. Old Guy

    Old Guy Formula Junior
    Honorary

    Dec 1, 2003
    438
    No longer here
    General Motors (using sled testing) and Daimler-Chrylser have done extensive testing on the HANS device, as has NASCAR. This testing is the basis for almost every professional series in the world mandating its use. The HANS device, incidentally, was invented by a PhD in Bio-Mechanics, and has received a significant number of awards for its improvements in driver safety.

    I agree with the first sentence: get the real information (but not just limited to web sites) and be careful what you read as user opinion.
     
  20. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
    19,800
    Full Name:
    Art
    I just finished a case that involved the Hutchen's device, which is now no longer useable in NASCAR . (I'd like to think that our case had something to do with that, but I don't know what happened.) I've got most of the engineering studies on all the devices, and the HANS appears to win hands down in regarding to lessening the G force to the driver's head. If anyone wants, they can PM me, and if they'll pay the copy costs, I can send them the engineering studies.

    Art
     
  21. LightGuy

    LightGuy Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 4, 2004
    32,819
    Texas
    Full Name:
    David
    One problem with the HANS is the cost . Are they still at $2000 ? It seems if they truly are so good they should be available to everyone not just those with money. It would be like patenting seat belts and charging $2000 a set.
     
  22. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest


    IIRC, they are $895 now.
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    21,155
    socal
    OG and Art etal,

    There is alot that is not in my first long post. If things get real crazy this thread could turn out to be the HNRchat.com. The real benefit in my post are impressions by a real user and how we really use devices like sharing cars etc... Aside from all the theory you have real users and real bugets. While we debate Isaac, HANS, sewing machine HNR etc... there are 95% non-pros using nothing at all and getting hurt or dying. I use them both for my own personal reasons because I bought one first then the other as more and conflicting information surfaced and my safety system evolved. Safety is a moving target. As you can see in my post I did not say one is better than another. What I will say that few can refute is that YMMV YMMV YMMV! Life is chess not checkers. You cannot see the crash game as one dimensional. There are all kinds of things that happen like the HANS offerning no lateral support past 45 degrees and Isaac offering 90 degree lateral support but neither device originally intended for that type of hit. This may be significant to some but not others because safety in a racecar is not whether you use a HNR but how it integretes into your safety system. It is all about your "safety system". So you see full containment seats in NASCAR but not in F1 because the head is contained inside the shell of the car in F1 and by nets and seat side wings in NASCAR...things like that. So lateral effect or lack of in the HNR in those two instances are not much of an issue. Look at 99% of clubracers out there I see no full containment seats, no right side head net. Could guys like that use the lateral support of the Isaac? When guys are on a budget the extra 1800 bucks for a proper FC seat and nets just doesn't get spent. So as you evolve in the sport and your car evolves your safety system does too assuming you feel like learning about it. So do you want to talk about seats next or harnesses? For more info try the SCCA foundation 8007702055 and buy the DVD "are you as safe as you think you are". Again...

    YMMV
     
  24. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Owner

    Sep 3, 2002
    5,790
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    To quote Harry Hogg from Days of Thunder: "Well that sounds just dumb enough to be a race driver"

    If you are going to be using a HANS that means that you car at least has a roll cage and 5 or 6 point racing harnesses. I say a roll cage because anyone who uses harnesses and does not have a cage has enough of a death wish to bearly use a helmet let alone a HANS. With this assumption, track driving or racing has already consumed a respectable amount of financial and personal investment. If the price of a HANS is such a concern then spend less on the car or do one less event. Even the most modest effort to go to the track involves the investment of many thousands of dollars. Let's put things into perspective here; the racing game is expensive from all angles and the HANS is no different.
     
  25. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    21,155
    socal
    #22 fatbillybob, Feb 21, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I think both devices pass pretty good.

    check the SAE web site at http://www.sae.org. Extensive comparative testing was conducted during the summer of 2002, the results of which were presented at the SAE's Motor Sports Engineering Conference in December 2002 and are available as an SAE technical paper (Paper Number 2002-01-3304). Also available is the SAE technical paper titled "The Use of Dashpots in the Prevention of Basilar Skull Fractures" (Paper Number 2002-01-3306), which describes the development of the Isaac® head and neck system.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  26. LightGuy

    LightGuy Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 4, 2004
    32,819
    Texas
    Full Name:
    David
    Nuvolari: thanks for the update on racing safety and costs. But..... L E T M E S P E L L I T O U T F O R Y O U. Since this is the racing forum its assumed were talking RACING cars here. I'll check my formula Mazda to see if it came with a roll hoop. Also does this mean the rope I tie myself in with is not up to spec? Next time I'm at the track I'll inform the 80% of the people that cant justify the HANS cost, to pack up and not return till they can. BTW last time I checked on pricing , one year ago, they were $2000. Glad to see they have come down to where club racers might afford them.
     
  27. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
    19,800
    Full Name:
    Art
    These devices if used and set up properly can save your life. 2k is a lot of money, but I suspect a lot less than a fatality would be. The case that just resolved involved a collision at Irwindale Raceway. We contended that the track was improperly designed, and that the Hutchen's device was improper because it didn't provide the protection that it claimed it would. We had experts who were prepared to testify as to both those issues.

    During the course of the case, we obtained the various testing data from many sources, What we found was that there was quite a bit of variance in the protection provided by the various supplies of these devices. Everyone understands that racing is dangerous, however, I'm alway reminded of the old Bell Helmet at: $10 helmet, $10 head (this was in the 60s so allow for inflation).

    Point is: just because its dangerous doesn't mean you shouldn't protect yourself.

    Art
     
  28. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    21,155
    socal
    Art,

    In your legal opinion 1) who makes the most sue proof device...if there is such a thing. That speaks to which device can convince a lawyer it is the best. Also, are you interested in this issue where the SFI 38.1 rating is basically designed for HANS? If you have an SFI rated device you assume it must be better than a non-rated device and I would assume Lawyers would use that. The problem is SFI like FIA sometimes use faulty info/data whatever. Here are some examples of the issue that related right to HNR from a letter from Isaac to SFI:


    SFI Specification 38.1

    Isaac® has outperformed other products manufacturers call "SFI certified," so when tested to SFI Specification 38.1 it is expected to exceed those requirements.

    While any attempt to help drivers evaluate safety products is good, 38.1 should be considered inadequate for this purpose, i.e. it offers drivers no assurance they are using a safe product. It was written without the input of design engineers and ignores several safety issues. SFI Specification 38.1, written in October of 2004, should improve over time.

    Below is the full body of a letter one of our engineers wrote to SFI after reviewing the specification:


    Thank you for your letter of 11 November regarding the 11 December meeting in Indianapolis on the proposed SFI Spec 38.1.

    Unfortunately, we will not be able to attend but offer the following observations:

    - Section 2.1 Head position and neck stress are unrelated. This fact is technically evident when one reviews Isaac® crash test results, and is self-evident when one moves ones head to the extreme range of motion without fatality.

    - Section 2.5 Why is there no corresponding requirement that the device not impede the driver's exit from the vehicle? The HANS® device, for example, has a documented history of trapping drivers in burning racecars. ( I Use HANS and Isaac. HANS still restricts my exit even with practice)

    - Why is there no requirement that the belts stay on the device? (my note HANS can slip off driver, this the reason for some harness makers to make HANS specific belt that HANS does not endorse because????maybe the oterh belt makers get mad?)

    - Section 5.1.2(A) I believe the word is "anthropometric".

    - Section 5.1.2(D) Why Delphi? Why not the 50G sled at WSU, where every device has already been tested? (this is my note...Delphi is where HANS is tested part of GM. GM/daimler/chrysler are all in bed with HANS. WSU is where all the other devices are tested at a university crash facility and independant. Kinda sounds like fox watching hen house. Does that bother you?)

    - Sections 5.1.3 and 6.0 The use of a continuous measure such as percentage head load reduction is more valuable than a single threshold number. Like race cars, Head and Neck Restraints aren't "good enough," some are better than others.

    - Why is there no requirement for lateral load tests? (my note...HANS offers no side protection. Isaac does)

    - Section 7.0 Why is there no requirement for the submission of test videos?

    - There should be a provision for ensuring that the helmet connection is such that it does not void the helmet's Snell certification. (mt note drilling of helmets immediately voids warantees and ratings...Isaac does not require drilling. HANS requires drilling)

    - Why are only successful test results submitted? All test results should be submitted, otherwise a manufacturer could experience 97 test failures and three test successes. As a driver, I don't want a product that works only three percent of the time.

    Lastly, just out of curiosity, what does SFI consider the "equivalent entity" to a licensed Professional Engineer?

    Thank you again for making us aware of this Review Meeting. Please feel free to contact us with any questions of comments."



    So that kinda makes you think eh? Any comments?





    Also, with all the liability waivers you sign off on when you race it is obviuos that lawyers can still get by this and get money for plaintiffs even when they know the sport is dangerous. You can never design a perfect no risk sport otherwise it would have no risk and no fun and people would not do it. Think for a second about we participants while being the shallow pocket the track gets sued. What aobut us. What can we do as individual racers non-pros to protect ourselves from liability from an on-track incident?
     

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