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488 Has any owner weighed the Pista yet?

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Dilusha, Aug 8, 2019.

  1. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
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    I agree but just letting people know the real deal. There is a lot of chatter about QC between the different brands so figured I would post up my initial experience. The car is bad ass and has a lot of presence. I drove for 5 minutes and there were already pictures posted on social media.
     
  2. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

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    Yeah, crappy wherever they are built... The problems are endless.
     
  3. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

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    It could have changed, but when I got my first X5 built in the US after a 3 series built in Germany, I was really shocked by the difference in quality (that was 2004, they could have improved by now...)
    FIAT building Jeep in Italy is consistent though :p
     
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  4. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    Nobody denies Ferrari paint is poor. As is Merc and most other brands these days with water-based paint. That is a world away from the quality issues reported on McLaren. My own car was reliable as have all my Ferraris of the last 5 years been so I won’t claim my experience was bad. However, you just need to listen to owners that use their Macs (and I know a number of them) and look around YouTube to discover that McLaren have a more substantial issue. No bias needed.
     
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  5. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    Not 100% true the South African MB are awful, actually in the top Lemon cars in the USA
     
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  6. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    You hit it on the head. Ive been a resin chemist for 35 years. The day they went to water-based :(:(:(:(:(:(
     
  7. IPO1

    IPO1 F1 Rookie
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    #182 IPO1, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
    YouTube is not exactly what I would call reliable source. But if you do, search on Ferrari (hell any brand) issues, you'll find them as well. Always some unhappy person willing to turn on their iPhone to make a video. That's YouTube.

    We can do Ferrari issues search on YouTube all day...I can post a quick dozen if you want...but you can search for yourself.

    So you believe what others say, but your own Mac experience was fine...hmmm. Ok.
     
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  8. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
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    #183 Gh21631, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
    I'm a Mac owner, I've put miles on both my 720s. I'd advise you to use your personal experience vs. 3rd parties from the internet.

    Regarding the Pista, I'm not even analyzing the paint yet which will be fine and can easily be remedied. The issue I take exception with is the attached. I went by my dealer today and saw another Pista with a similar issue although not as bad as mine. Absolute BS they would send a $500k car out the door like this and you want to criticize McLaren. Give me a break.

    Get off the high horse and stop being so biased. I can go on and on about Ferrari QC on every model. i.e. F12 rippled bumpers, FF transmissions, 488 brakes, etc. Let's not go there.

    With this said Ferraris quality is better than McLarens but it isnt by much. I could get into the details from my PERSONAL experience but why bother.

    Something else to note, in speaking with the tech today he just shook his head and said yeah we see this stuff all the time. This is a certified Ferrari tech at a Ferrari dealership.

    These low volume mnfrs will have similar issues it seems no matter how much you spend. Check out Pagani for example or Koenigsegg.



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  9. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 Veteran
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    What exactly is the problem there? Hard to tell from photo what I’m looking at?

    Good post btw.
     
  10. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
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    This is a pic of the drivers side door panel where the alcantara panel meets the top of the door at the window. Notice the gap is wide enough that you can see the white material. This is the film that covers the side airbag. The panel should be pushed closer together so that the rubber gasket covers the door panel but the clip won't stay because (I believe) the airbag frame is too large and keeps the panel out just a bit too far. I was going to have my guys take a shot but thought better and have an appointment with the dealer next week. Hopefully they can make some adjustments and bring it in a bit tighter. I thought this stuff only happened on McLarens. :)
     
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  11. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    #186 Lukeylikey, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
    Third party YouTube stories are interesting and give you a flavour but best to use experience from either people you know or your own directly. One example is a friend with a 675, who loves and still owns the car. However, he had to buy a GT3 because the Mac repeatedly let him down on track days, usually in Europe, with the car having to be brought back to the UK at high cost. As I said, he still loves the car but just won’t take it to the track. Are you going to tell him to stop being silly, everything is ok and he should be fine now? Just one example of a number of friends.

    I also know a specialist exotic body repair business well, his view is that McLaren quality is extremely poor when you get all the surface panels off, it’s easy to see in his opinion and he seen many of them. Why on earth would he lie to me, he’s not selling anything to me? Maybe he’s more incompetent than running and owning a successful body shop would lead you to believe?

    I’m not being biased, I have just made my choice based on what I know. Reliability is not the main reason I am no longer a McLaren customer, but is part of a blend of reasons why I am not interested. I wouldn’t advise people against buying McLarens though - my friends who I respect highly and have had issues, still love their cars and for what seem to me to be good reasons - they love the way they drive. I am not telling anyone to not buy Macs, just that it is clear to me that reliability is a consideration. Maybe not on every car but I keep a lot of cars which is already a hassle. I decide not to risk adding to that work by choosing cars where I figure there is a risk they will be in the shop more than they should be. I have not had more than what I consider to be usual trouble with multiple Ferraris (except 360 and 430 where quality was certainly an issue) and Porsches. And no doubt there are trim issues and other low quality issues on both Ferrari and (whisper) Porsche is just the same. But that is different to the sort of issue that keeps the car off the road or requires an expensive repair. YMMV.
     
  12. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    By the way, one other point. Trim issues are often nothing to do with the factory. Usually they are to do with the importer (and I know this first hand) where local regulations require local adjustment to a car or where there have been handling issues and a panel has had to come off to rectify it. This happens very frequently.
     
  13. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
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    Haha, OK. Please believe whatever makes you happy. This point is not worth debating with you. Enjoy what makes you happy but don't crap on others because of how you feel vs. their actual experience.
     
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  14. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

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    Excusing or accepting poor Q/C or reliability issues is a guarantee the problems will continue. Exotic car manufacturers must be held to a higher standard of excellence and anything less is unacceptable.
     
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  15. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    #190 Lukeylikey, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
    Really? You think I’m ‘crapping’ on others? And suddenly what I am quoting from direct experience with people I know well is ‘what I feel’ and your direct knowledge of the few cars you have owned (in the context of all the other McLarens out there) trumps that as if those bad experiences didn’t happen?

    Read my posts. I don’t ‘crap’ on other brands and certainly not on other people. I am careful to respect them all - I have regularly said what great cars McLaren, Porsche, Aston and Lambo make (because I believe it and have spent large sums on all those brands except Lambo). But there are things that happen with all brands that are hard to deny - McLaren styling I often don’t like but that’s personal (and I always acknowledge that), McLaren depreciation I do not believe to be a strong point nor their handling of quality and customer issues - and there are many stories and reports that would seem to support that which are at least worthy of consideration for anyone making up their own mind. Same with Aston whose cars also don’t drive as well as Ferrari or Mac, Ferrari paint could be better and it takes too long to get cars, getting even an allocation for Porsche GT product is unnecessarily hard and although they are robust their build quality is not always that high. You can always quote exceptions to these criticisms but these reputations exist for a reason. Ferrari standard paint really could be better. Many McLarens really have depreciated heavily.

    I plan to continue to say things as I see them and give reasons for my own views, which are always followed up by my own actions (i.e. I buy what I say I like, don’t buy what I say I don’t like, and never judge anyone who likes and buys what I don’t - or can you show me a single post of mine where I say someone is wrong to buy any brand?) I don’t mind if you or anyone disagrees with my views, it’s a forum after all. But to say someone is biased is really to say that they sometimes write what they don’t believe. No doubt I will not always be correct but I never say it if I don’t believe it.

    The thing I dislike most? When people criticise Ferrari (or any product) stating what should be opinion as though it were a fact - “this car’s design is a complete fail” as a paraphrased example. That happens a lot here, mostly aimed at knocking Ferrari. I get it, they are the market leader. But given they are the market leader for good reason, do things very very well and we are on a Ferrari chat site, a huge percentage of comments here are negative towards Ferrari. On the balance of probabilities, therefore, the crap is less likely to be comments defending Ferrari.

    This is now a severe thread deviation so I’ll shut up.
     
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  16. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    That’s true but production quality is heavily influenced by a manufacturing plant getting into a really good rhythm. For this you need repetitions - high volume. There is a difference between quality of materials and quality of build. A high ticket, low volume car will have high quality materials but low quality build. A low ticket, high volume car will be the other way around. It is very very hard for a low volume car to have a better quality of build than even the smallest Toyota.
     
  17. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

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    Unfortunately every human has inherent degrees of bias , some more than others. Impartiality is a trait in exceedingly short supply. Bias is the seed that grows due to the process of cognitive dissonance.Humans are intuitively psychologically in an adverse and conflicted state when having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs or attitudes about people, objects or ideology. The world is less prone to cause angst, anxiety or stress when competing thoughts are reduced to a uniform and consistent state of mind. This phenomenon transcends all aspects of life and existence. In the super car world, for some " A Ferrari is a Ferrari" and for those individuals, the purchase processed is simplified and reduced to Ferrari. And therefore, negative reaction by others to the brand will be dismissed , excused or rationalized. This attitude and facts are not necessarily the exclusive domain of Ferrari as it can apply to other brands. It is the exception when an individual will be free of allegiance and bias. Many may claim to be so, but it is a rare occurence when they genuinely are.

    While bias has a soothing psychological effect, the downside is that diverse encounters and associations are avoided and consequently potential new ideas and enlightening experiences go unrealized. Opening one's mind and heart will result in freeing oneself to opposing and diverse thoughts and attitudes that will be ultimately liberating and rewarding.
     
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  18. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

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    Horacio Pagani and his clients would tell you that is nonsense. Every one is a beautifully put together machine. It's all down to the corporate mindset of the manufacturer. No need for excuses.
     
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  19. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

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    If Lamborghini can do it, ( cognizant of the fact they are adhering to a German corporate culture while Ferrari must be forgiven for their seemingly lack of precision and high finishing standards) so can the British and the Italians. Luke is once again playing his role as a Ferrari apologist.
     
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  20. Lukeylikey

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    Except in this case including McLaren and Aston. I don’t have any knowledge of Lambo or Pagani but I wouldn’t mind hearing evidence if both brands are as sorted as you make out? I personally don’t know. But Porsche is an interesting case. I have had a few semi-serious problems with Porsches and then there are the regular engine issues always talked about on Porsche forums. The high volume cars may be different but 911s and especially GT product are not so voluminous. That may also add some weight to my point?

    I know for certain it is much harder to get build quality with lower volume. I know many manufacturers and engineers and this is commonly accepted. Hand built just is not as efficient and consistent as a machine.
     
  21. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

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    My opinion is predicated on personal experience , the opinions of other owners on Lamborghini Talk as well as many I speak to at Cars and Coffee. The consensus is that from the Huracan onward, the Lamborghinis show a consistently high degree of reliability and superb fit and finish.
     
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  22. ipsedixit

    ipsedixit Karting

    Yup. And one can thank Audi/VW for that.

    Both good and bad, just depends on your perspective.
     
  23. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

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    The Gallardo was introduced post Audi/VW take over and while it was more modern and reliable than its predecessors , it was not nearly up to the standards of the Huracan. Audi was responsible for injecting resources both financial and human to create a new Lamborghini that was an improvement on all levels without diminishing its unique design language. The heart and soul of the company is still very much Italian blended with positive German constraints and strict production standards and procedures. I view the relationship as a synthesis of the best of both worlds.
     
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  24. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    JD Power UK survey for 2019, bottom brands for reliability in order of worst first...

    BMW (!)
    Fiat
    Audi
    Jaguar
    Land Rover
    Mercedes

    Exotics too small to be measured. Except for Fiat they are all premium brands. Lower volume plus higher complexity makes expensive cars more difficulty to make reliable, despite the higher price.

    This was a very large survey (18,000 people) and other surveys yield different results but the premium brands often struggle.

    Out of interest VW is around average and Skoda second. Lesson seems to be regular and repeated - simple and high volume is easiest to make reliable.
     
  25. BarryK

    BarryK Formula Junior

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    #200 BarryK, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
    Looking at the complete list of the USA JD power reliability survey tells a very different story.

    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/13/j-d-power-2019-lexus-toyota-porsche-most-reliable-dependable-cars/2846324002/

    Note that the top 2 are not high volume, Lexus & Porsche. BMW, Audi, Mini all do well as well. At the bottom, Fiat is a large volume player.

    So that blows your theory out of the water just a bit :)

    Rank, Make, Reliability Score (lower = better)

    1. Lexus: 106

    2. Porsche: 108

    2. Toyota: 108

    4. Chevrolet: 115

    5. Buick: 118

    6. Mini: 119

    7. BMW: 122

    8. Audi: 124

    8. Hyundai: 124

    10. Kia: 126

    11. Infiniti: 128

    12. Volkswagen: 131

    13. Mercedes-Benz: 134

    14. Subaru: 136

    15. Nissan: 137

    16. Chrysler: 146

    16. Ford: 146

    16. Honda: 146

    19. Lincoln: 147

    20. Mitsubishi: 158

    21. Mazda: 159

    22. GMC: 161

    23. Cadillac: 166

    24. Jeep: 167

    25. Jaguar: 168

    26. Acura: 171

    26. Ram: 171

    28. Dodge: 178

    29. Volvo: 204

    30. Land Rover: 221

    31. Fiat: 249
     
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