News

has anybody done a restomod on a ghibli?

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by ross, Nov 10, 2013.

  1. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 25, 2002
    28,100
    houston/geneva
    Full Name:
    Ross
    you also just described an iso grifo ;)
     
  2. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    267
    #77 GLB, Jun 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  3. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #78 William Abraham, Jun 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have borrowed the photo of Thor's car to put beside yours. Thor has a US car that has had the bumper change to Euro version. The car also has the Ohlins new front shock set up that was designed for this. I am not sure what tyres he is running but original wheels.

    On the fronts they look just a bit small, strangely. Again, I am not an expert on the right tyres but would 18" give another inch or would it just give less tyre and more rim?

    I put up the picture of the new Quattroporte rims which were wider on the rear. Still I think this goes part of the way for a driving set. Keep the original rims and wheels for show and a new set for driving.

    There are some places in the US that will billet cut a new wheel. I wonder if they were sent an original wheel in 15" could they replicate it in 17" with the required offsets?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  4. Maserati Blue

    Maserati Blue Formula Junior

    Dec 13, 2010
    947
    Europe

    We had a discussion at the Merak Group, about reproducing the Merak Campagnolo 15" wheels into something slightly bigger, that will fit more modern tyres. For example, 16" or 17". But the project didn't move along, because of the high production cost.

    I'd be interested to know if you find a place that can produce them at a reasonable cost.
     
  5. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    61,282
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    When thinking about a solution that involves differing wheel sizes such as you're suggesting keep in mind that more rim and less tire may involve exposing the brake hardware which is not the car's strong suit. If you upgrade the hardware with nicer looking and better performing pieces then the original rims will probably no longer fit.

    There are some options involving larger rims discussed in the Merak and Bora threads which you might want to peruse if you have not.

    If you paint a wheel with an original matching color I think that will help to keep it more period looking. I'm not a fan of chrome or polished wheels on this car though some people have put wires on it.

    In one of the threads someone did a 17"(?) representation of the original rims. I thought that was pretty good. I we could get a blank undrilled version like that then Bora & QPIII owners could use them. Pipe dream stuff ... ;) Carry on ...

     
  6. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #81 William Abraham, Jun 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  7. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #82 William Abraham, Jun 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi

    I got a response back from one wheel builder so we can get either exactly what we want in any size and offset but $10k for one car! De Tomaso has a nice range of replicas for the Pantera but I am not sure what they would look like on the car and indeed whether the offsets are right.

    "An exact replica but in the larger sizes cnc cut from 6061T6 aluminum would run roughly $2500 per wheel. We would have to cut the wheel from a block of aluminum to recreate the outer edge of the rim to look like the cast one piece original design. If you didn't mind the outer edge looking like a standard 2 piece wheel we could make a center and weld it into a rim and you are looking at a wheel that would cost about $1800. Price would come down on both of these if you bought 5 sets or more at a time."
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  8. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    267
    I've been playing with these ideas ever since I got the Bora four years ago. I put up that quickie Photoshop of the stretched wheels. Then I had a Merak on approval (didn't get it but wish I had), then finally rescued my neglected QP3. I checked out all of them for this idea.

    The main goal is to get some modern tires to for daily use. For the QP3, 235/55-17s seemed a good choice - there are almost no big 16" tires left, and to my eyes, 18" wheels have too much wheel for the remaining sidewall. The 235/55 isn't quite tall enough, but using TireRack as a reference, there are 36 vendors of V or higher rated tires in that size, but only four (three are run-flat) in 245/55 and two in 255/55.

    The big gap in the front wheel well is probably due in part to that small diameter difference, but also due to the US cars having different springs. That might have been to meet US headlight height minimums. Thor's has been set right with the Ohlins- notice how the sill trim line would pass below the front hub on his car, but right into it on mine.

    There are several companies that will make custom wheels. In the US, I found <evodwheels.com> or <team3wheels.com>. In the UK, there's <group4wheels.com> and Compomotive <comp.co.uk> makes retro wheels for at least 12 other companies. ForgedItalia has some nice stuff, too. I'm sure there are others. Unfortunately a lot of those companies just want copies of the originals, so it doesn't solve the tire problem.

    I think a case could be made to one of them to make a multi-purpose design to cover everything from Bora through Kyalami. All the wheels seem to be derived from the original Bora 15x7 wheel molds with minor changes in inserts to use 5 bolts or add the four webs of the Merak wheels. The rest of the differences come from post-casting machining. In fact, the QP3 wheels still have the divots needed on the original Bora to remove the hubcaps, although the tabs have been machined away. So... if a company were careful about the base casting, and like team3 used a spun back half to allow different widths, they should be able to turn one investment into a wheel range to cover the survivors of about 4700 cars produced. That was going to be my sales pitch, anyway!

    Before my little company's big customer bailed last year, I wanted to play with the idea in our shop. We have a 3D laser scanner, 3 and 5 axis CNC mills, CNC lathe, everything but time and money!
    My toy projects have slowed down considerably - take a close look at the background in the wheel picture above.
     
  9. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    267
  10. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    300
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    Billet Specialties, a wheel manufacturer in the US, is making up some custom 17" x 8" wheels for a friend who has a Bora and for my Bora. They will be larger matches of the existing wheels and will also incorporate appropriate hubcaps so they look like the old original Bora wheels. I haven't been told the cost yet but I'm sure it will be substantial. However, it solves the problem of find suitable tires in a reasonable diameter so that the ride height is not radically changed. I have considered several different combinations but I have not chosen anything yet. I'm waiting to see how it all comes together. Also, due to the larger wheels that will be delivered, my friend upgraded the brakes to fit the wheels with Wilwood making the rotors, calipers and suitable mounting brackets for the original uprights front and rear. I decided to purchase a set for myself. Don't even ask what such a custom setup costs but it should look better with larger brakes filling the new wheels. Everything will be reversible as is my usual desire so that someone can go back to the old wheels and brakes if they chose. Of course, who knows if there will be suitable tire for 15" rims for anything less than their weight in gold in the coming years.
     
  11. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    61,282
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    So Wilwood can supply calipers with the suitably compatible rubber for LHM?

     
  12. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    Response in the UK. I think this is good news!

    Yes we could make this as a 2 piece wheel so the centre and outer rim are cast as one and the inner rim bolts to the inside this allows you to have different widths front and rear.
    We would have to make tooling so would need about 5 sets ordered to make manufacturing the tool cost effective.
    Obviously it would be best to have 17” wheels front and rear so we only have to make one tool.
    Assume you would use a 8x17 wheel the price per wheel if you ordered 5 sets would be £330.00 each plus carriage and V.A.T.
    Delivery 8-10 weeks from order.
     
  13. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    267
    Sounds great. I'm amazed they can amortize the design and tooling over such a short run. Which company is it?
     
  14. Quattroporte3

    Quattroporte3 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2010
    1,048
    #89 Quattroporte3, Jun 10, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2014
    Nothing against people personalizing their rides, but to me the 5 spoke Cragar/SS-like rims belong on 50's hot rods and 60's muscle cars.

    I think the Lexus rims posted earlier on Mitchell's car worked a bit better visually with the car, but as Bob mentioned the brake hardware isn't designed to be especially pretty.

    The original rims seem to me to be more discreet and low key, while still hinting at exclusivity and performance (they are Campagnolo), and blend well with the cars bulk and lines imho.

    A larger, more modern version wheel/rim (slightly wider, several inches larger diameter) would be welcomed, but there's always the question of cost, especially for these cars. Something like a 17" diameter and somewhere between 235-245mm in width. This would give a slightly lower profile tyre without it looking boy-racer like, and offer a much larger selection of commonly available tyres to choose from. There isn't a whole lot in 225/70 that is V or better rated these days! A 225/60R17 would fit perfectly and give the same rolling diameter, and anything around 235/60R17 to 255/55R17 would probably look pretty good, and offer slightly better grip.

    My car has the original rims, and Goodyear Eagle RS-A 225/70R15 tyres. They're supposed to have the same diameter as the Michelen XWXs. Unfortunately the only places who still seem to be making tyres of this size are Michelen and Avon. Firestone stopped making the Firehawk PV41 that was used on Crown Victoria police cruisers throughout the 80's and 90's, Goodyear discontinued the Eagle RS-A my car has, Pirelli no longer makes their version for this size either.

    As far as the front/rear looking different, they're identical. The front end is still a little lower than it should be, we're still working out the final spring rate and length for the custom dampers, but it's close. Maybe it's because the car is on an incline, or the slightly lowered ride height in front that gives that impression.
     
  15. emsiegel13

    emsiegel13 Formula Junior

    Oct 9, 2007
    300
    Grayslake, Illinis
    Full Name:
    Elliot M. Siegel
    Yes, if you indicate that you are using the LHM and explain that the normal brake rubber is incompatible with that type of brake fluid. Granted, since the brakes I was supplied with were done as a totally custom job, the seals may have also been custom made to meet the LHM requirements so I can't say if you could get standard Wilwood brakes with the correct seals but there is no reason you couldn't contact them and see what they would say about it.
     
  16. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    Didn't like the Lexus so much but it seems if I get 5 orders I can get them all made up exactly as spec but 17 x 8 on the front and 17 x 9 maybe on the rear. I would need to supply a car to see what the right mix would be on the rear. 17 x 9 will work on the front but not sure on the rear. 18s are too much wheel.

    The issue as I see it is that the XWXs have a lot of black side up to a fairly narrow top rubber portion. This has the effect of filling up the wheel well. Modern tyres show up the space more. The Pantera guys go with a 16" front and 17" rear. This would be too difficult -- So we have a route forward 17 x 8 on the front with appropriate wheels and 17 x max (9 or 10) not the rear. Thoughts by the experts?????
     
  17. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    267
    Maybe you didn't read my comment -- I used these wheels only to show how a 17x8 wheel with correct offset and 235-55 tire fits in the wheelwells. I wasn't proposing using Mustang wheels on a QP3. William has now contacted a wheel company in the UK about doing exactly what we've all talked about -- making a larger diameter look-alike of the original wheel. You still have to make sure the proposed size(s) will fit. Using a dummy wheel of the same dimensions is a way to do that. Fortunately the QP3 uses a fairly common PCD and offset and I had some on another car that I could borrow.
     
  18. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    #94 William Abraham, Jun 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2014
    I found a very interesting site on Toyota Tacoma Forums - Tacoma World where there is a tyre comparison programme. You can compare all aspects of the tyres and change parameters. You can see that the 245 55r 17 is a near perfect size match for the old tyres and the 245 50 r18 is right for the 18" Rim. It also shows the rim and tyre profiles. So Assuming we can get the stock wheels reproduced in 17 or 18" what is the consensus 17 or 18?

    Also, assuming we can go wider on the rear would it be 17 or 18 x 8 on the front and 17 or 18 x 9 on the rear? I am assuming 10" on the rear would be too wide. OR would people prefer to keep the same width front and rear. Remember the original diagram for the QP III had wider profile tyres on the rear which must have been compromised in production.

    I notes a Merc today that had 245 60r 18 that looked very nice. I still think the 18" rims are a bit too pimped for the QP III looks. I still favour getting the wheels done in the Autumn if I can get 5 other buyers.


    Side by side Overlay
    225/70r15 vs 245/55r17 Tire Comparison Side By Side
    225/70-15 245/55-17 Difference
    Diameter inches (mm) 27.4 (696) 27.61 (701.3) 0.21 (5.3) 0.8%
    Width inches (mm) 8.86 (225) 9.65 (245) 0.79 (20) 8.9%
    Circum. inches (mm) 86.08 (2186.55) 86.74 (2203.2) 0.66 (16.65) 0.8%
    Sidewall Height inches (mm) 6.2 (157.5) 5.31 (134.75) -0.9 (-22.75) -14.4%
    Revolutions per mile (km) 736.02 (457.34) 730.46 (453.88) -5.56 (-3.46) -0.8%
     
  19. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    61,282
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
  20. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    They will set up the tooling with 5 orders. As the centre is a separate piece they can do wider rears and I am sure a different bolt set up.

    I was focussed on the QP III but I am sure they can accommodate. They are in the wheel business.
     
  21. GLB

    GLB Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2010
    267
    I'd vote for 17", same size all around. I think 18's don't leave enough sidewall to look right on an old car. I did try a 17x9 wheel with 245 section tire and it looked like there would be good clearance, but see my earlier post - there were several caveats. I just bid on some 17x9s that might fit and give a clearer answer. If you go ahead with the engine swap you might need all the traction you can get, but for my 4.9 car, I'd rather keep the sizes the same; smaller in front would just increase understeer.

    The Bora is tougher. The QP3 has a common bolt pattern and offset, so finding used wheels to try is fairly easy. Not so with the 4x130 traditional Maserati pattern. I have a wheel simulator and when (if?) I get the subframe back in I can leave out the spring and try it over the whole range of suspension travel. I measured the maximum width at the beltline of the wheel opening to be 12", but at the top of the wheel well it's only 9". On that car I'd want beefier rear wheels and tires. I'm sure Alfieri had some good reason to make the rear track narrower than the front, but looks wasn't part of it. See the interview with Giugiaro in the Bora section of Marc's book. He wanted bigger wheels at the time but they just weren't available. When the 512BB came out in '73, it had 9" rear rims, but the same 225 XWX's that came on the QP3. It looks a bit odd with the tires stretched to fit.

    I found you have to take the calculated tire size numbers with a grain of salt. The Pirelli P-zero tires in the picture I posted turned out to have the narrowest cross section of all the "235/55" tires listed by TireRack. The Hankook Ventus in the same nominal size is almost a whole inch wider mounted on the same rim width. The choice of brand will make a difference in fit and appearance.
     
  22. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    61,282
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    One, two or three piece?

    I expect that the casting blank is one piece which is then machined for the proper center configuration unless they're thinking about some more wild offsets and rim widths?

    Could you elaborate or is it not that far along as yet?
     
  23. staatsof

    staatsof Six Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    61,282
    Fuggetaboutitland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    +1 on the 17". Hopefully that will ensure enough future tire availability to make this effort worthwhile???

    I regularly drove 235 on the front and 245 on the rear without problems. The tires didn't look odd at all. I did have 225/70 on it for a very short time. The car cornered like you were running hush puppies.

    When I tracked the car I had 255 on the rear and it was fine for the track but not so good for the road. The Bora has those raised smooth ridges in the rear wheel well and those were a terrific idea because if you do rub it's a polishing action and not a tearing one. The 255 size tires would burnish those spots on the road if you hit a bump while turning hard. Not so on the track. Those were BFG R1 DOT competition tires so not exactly like most road 255s back then.

    But going from a 15" to a 17" rim probably requires wider rims to properly accommodate 235 & 245 tires. Tires are constructed very differently now when compared with the old XGTs and Gatorbacks. Those tires were more than enough for the car's capabilities.

    The 235s rub and polish the aluminum link for the front rollbar at full lock - not a big deal IMO.

     
  24. William Abraham

    William Abraham Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2010
    822
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    William Abraham
    Yes we could make this as a 2 piece wheel so the centre and outer rim are cast as one and the inner rim bolts to the inside this allows you to have different widths front and rear.
    We would have to make tooling so would need about 5 sets ordered to make manufacturing the tool cost effective.
    Obviously it would be best to have 17” wheels front and rear so we only have to make one tool.
    Assume you would use a 8x17 wheel the price per wheel if you ordered 5 sets would be £330.00 each plus carriage and V.A.T.
    Delivery 8-10 weeks from order.


    That is what they said above. I can ask them for more details if you want.
     

Share This Page