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Has anyone ever tried a different cam in a Ferrari?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by F1Ace, Jun 28, 2004.

  1. F1Ace

    F1Ace F1 Rookie

    Mar 15, 2004
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    Wes
    I was wondering if there were any experiences among you guys or anyone you know regarding the use of more aggressive cams. I believe Forzani can do them, but was wondering if anybody here has tried a different cam by anybody, on any model, and what it was like.

    My 328 seems to run out of steam after 6500 so the cam is a bit conservative, it would seem. Makes me wonder if it's something to look at.

    Comments?

    Wes
     
  2. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    You can buy OEM cams off of euro cars for 328s, to get a little more pep.
     
  3. Wayne 962

    Wayne 962 Formula Junior

    Nov 27, 2003
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    The problem with the 328 cars is the CIS - you cannot run an agressive camshaft without going to an EFI system with individual throttle boddies. That is the problem with with the CIS system, and one of the main reasons why power was down from 1979 to 1980 in the 308s...

    -Wayne
     
  4. F1Ace

    F1Ace F1 Rookie

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    Forgive my ignorance, but what does CIS stand for?

    Wes
     
  5. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Don't feel bad, I asked the exact same question a while back. It is the Computerized(?) Ignition system, not 100% sure what the C is but I know it is the ignition system. The point is that our old ignition systems are not very capable of handling changes. In fact a simple upgrade to a modern ignition system on our cars will yeild 20-35hp.
     
  6. GaryReed

    GaryReed F1 Rookie
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    Nope, CIS is not the ignition system, it's the fuel system.

    The Bosch K-jet fuel injection is a mechanically controlled "continuous injection system" (CIS).

    Here's some info from a website regarding using hotter cams on cars equipped with CIS:

    "CIS is famously intolerant of the more radical (high-lift, long-duration) camshaft grinds, which is the main reason it must be discarded to build extremely powerful street and racing motors. Fuel flow in the CIS system is controlled by the rising and falling of a round sensor plate inside a conical housing, or venturi. The more the throttle butterfly valve is opened, the more air gets sucked into the airbox intake and flows up and around the sensor plate, which rises in response to the flowing air. The sensor plate acts as a lever, and the more it is forced upward by the rushing air, the more the piston housed in the fuel distributor falls, metering out precisely calibrated fuel to the fuel injectors. More radical camshaft grinds produce more valve overlap than do more mild cams, and thus cause air pulsations to travel up the intake system and batter the sensor plate, interrupting the precise metering of air that allows the precise metering of fuel."
     
  7. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Saw that Griot's cover last night...awesome!!! :)
     
  8. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
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    Oops, thanks Gary. *runs and hides as not to look more stupid*

    Boy I really feel dumb right now.

    That said updating the old FUEL ignition system will yeild the hp I stated earlier.
     
  9. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ
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    Uh, I think the 308's were carbureted up to 1980 1/2?

    From '80 1/2 to 1982 was injected 2-valve, from then on was injected 4-valve until the late 328 (1989?) when they got away from the CIS.

    Please elaborate and correct me if I am wrong................
     
  10. GaryReed

    GaryReed F1 Rookie
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    I believe that -ALL- years of the 328's had CIS injection.

    The 348 had the more modern Bosch Motronic M2.5 fuel injection and ignition system, then in 1993 the M2.7 replaced it.
     
  11. F1Ace

    F1Ace F1 Rookie

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    OK, that 25-30 hp got my attention. Now that I understand we're not talking about the ignition system I just want to know what is all involved in changing the "CIS" to ________________? Cost, involvement?

    On another note, I did install a Electromotive Distributorless Ignition system on my 280z Replica and found it made a pretty good difference. Does anyone also suggest the change to such a system on an F-car?

    Best!
    Wes
     
  12. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ
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    The ignition on my 308 was converted to solid state using two Crane XR700 boxes with an optical pickup in each distributor. I still run the stock coils, caps and rotors.

    Once the static timing is set the car is ready to go with no further adjustments necessary. One must be sure that the centrifugal advance weights are clean and move freely to get max power.

    I put my car on the dyno this spring and ran the engine up to 8,000 RPM on one pull without any hesitation or missing whatsoever. The cost of the conversion is around 500.00 USD versus 1500.00 for direct fire ignition. If you aren't running the car on the track I really don't see the justification for the direct fire set up.

    DJ
     
  13. steve f

    steve f F1 World Champ

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    i had some lotus esprit turbo cams and head in my ferrari ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------when i picked them up from the garage after the cambelt snapped
    ha ha that got you all thinking
     
  14. F1Ace

    F1Ace F1 Rookie

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    ...I'm thinking, and I still don't know what you said.

    Wes
     
  15. Wayne 962

    Wayne 962 Formula Junior

    Nov 27, 2003
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    Nope, 1980 was the introduction of CIS, at least here in the USA. That is why I specifically bought a 1979 car.

    -Wayne
     
  16. cavallo_nero

    cavallo_nero Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    I installed the electromotive ignition on my euro 308 (yes euro cams which like the hi rpms, and my low end torque is pretty darn good - even at 6800 feet). the direct fire ignition has given me zero problems and it woke up the car - fires on the exhaust stroke to further scavenge exhaust gasses. i would suggest some sort of tuned port fuel injection system - like on the testarossa/later C4 vette etc., to beef up the power. i have seen a picture of an injection system where each throttle body (8) is attached to each intake manifold on a 308 - it would sure beat the heck out of the performance given by my webers.
     
  17. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    Gary, not to split hairs with you.... but I think the 348's were updated to 2.7 Motronic as early as mid-1990 build. IIRC, it's really just the 1989 cars with screwy 2.5 and twin-plate clutches.


    -Daniel
     
  18. Wayne 962

    Wayne 962 Formula Junior

    Nov 27, 2003
    434
    On a related note, here's a blurb from my most recent book, "How to Rebuild and Modify Porsche 911 Engines". It's applicable here, with respect to the waste spark question:

    Similar to the Motronic system, there are a host of complete engine management systems that integrate both fuel delivery and ignition system control. Electromotive and Motec manufacture two of the most popular systems for the 911. While you will be able to get the maximum amount of performance out of your engine with one of these systems, they are not for the faint-of-heart, are technically challenging, and also cost a pretty penny. But, they are without a doubt the most flexible of any systems, and will enable you to extract every ounce of power from your engine if you want to spend the time tweaking the system. Most are programmable from a laptop computer, and can even interact both ways, giving you performance data and feedback from the engine as you run it through its paces. These systems typically cost anywhere from $3,000 to $10,000, however, they are usable on nearly any size 911 engine in any configuration.

    With the option of complete engine control, the possibility for total power optimization becomes a reality. The latest engine management system from Electromotive is the TEC-3 (Total Engine Control, Version 3), shown in Figure 4-34. The total cost for a single-plug system is about $2500. This system is far more advanced than previous versions and offers an almost unlimited amount of flexibility when designing your fuel & ignition systems.

    The TEC -3 system has a proportional air-to-fuel ratio table that allows you to systematically control the mixture from idle to full throttle. According to modern fuel injection theory, fuel and air combustion achieves its maximum efficiency at a ratio of 14.67:1. Although this ratio may be optimum for good fuel economy, it’s not best for maximizing power. On a normally aspirated engine at full throttle, maximum power is achieved with an air-fuel ratio set at about 14.2:1 to 14.3:1. On boosted engines this maximum power ratio is more in the range of 12.2 to 12.4. Using the variable fuel ratio characteristics of the TEC-3, you can create one set of programs for the track where optimum performance is key, and another set for the street, where maximum fuel mileage is desired. Because the TEC-3 system senses engine load via a manifold absolute pressure sensor, the system can determine whether you’re cruising on the highway or driving on the track. One single program can be designed for both applications.

    The system consists of a separate electronic control unit (ECU) and ignition coil packs. These coil packs or direct-fire units (DFUs) deliver a full-charge spark up to 15,000 RPM. On a single-plug 911 engine, you use a three coil assembly. Each coil fires a spark for two cylinders that are opposite from each other in the firing order. By using a separate ignition coil for each pair of companion cylinders, the time available to recharge the coils increases by a factor of three (on the six cylinder 911 engine). This configuration produces full spark energy while delivering a spark duration up to 2 milliseconds at 6,000 RPM. This duration is more than 20 times longer than most capacitive discharge units, and directly translates into better combustion and more power.

    Each coil pack is wired into two cylinders that are opposite of each other in the firing order (i.e. 1 & 4, 6 & 3, 2 & 5). The ignition portion of the TEC-3 system is wired so that both companion cylinders fire at the same time. Each coil fires a plug on the compression stroke for one cylinder and on the exhaust stroke for the companion cylinder. This produces what is known as a ‘waste spark’ on the exhaust stroke of the companion cylinder. The cylinder that has compressed the air/fuel mixture is delivered a higher voltage spark than its companion cylinder because the mixture creates an environment around the spark plug that offers a path of more resistance. Because the resistance inside the compressed cylinder is more than the resistance inside the cylinder on its exhaust stroke, the majority of spark energy is delivered to the compressed cylinder. A small amount of spark voltage is directed to the cylinder on its exhaust stroke. This waste spark has no effect at all on the performance of the engine. Direct connection from the coil to each of the cylinders eliminates sending the spark through the distributor cap and rotor which can sometimes cause cross-firing and other distributor-related performance problems. In addition, computer-controlled custom advance/retard curves eliminate any potential mechanical problems that may occur with centrifugal or vacuum timing adjustment.

    The TEC-3 ECU is dynamically programmed with easy-to-use software that comes with the system. The “Tuning Wizard” found in the WinTec 3.0 software allows you to create an instant engine profile in just a few steps (Figure 4-35). By inputting all of the parameters of your engine, you can get started with a good base profile from which you can make modifications. Mapped programs are easily downloaded into the ECU via a computer serial cable, and can be updated, changed or restored at any time. The base programs can be tweaked to get about 90% of the full potential power out of your engine. To achieve the final 10%, you will have to do extensive track testing, or run your engine on a dyno.
    The system works by sampling the values from sensors in the engine, and then comparing them to various lookup tables that control fuel delivery and ignition timing. These sensors consist of the following:

    · Oxygen Sensor (measures mixture by measuring the exhaust gases)
    · Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor (measures pressure, while compensating for altitude changes. You can also substitute a mass airflow sensor instead of the MAP.
    · Knock Sensor(detects and measures detonation caused by poor fuels, or too much timing advance)
    · Crank Angle Sensor (measures RPM and crank location)
    · Throttle Position Sensor (measures position for idle control and how quickly the peddle is depressed for fuel enrichments or deceleration cut-off)
    · Cam Angle Sensor (detects cam timing for true sequential mode fuel injection)

    All of these sensors work in conjunction to measure and ‘paint’ a picture of the engine conditions at any one point in time. The ECU takes all of these sensor readings and translates them into formulas for delivering fuel and firing sparks. Using the advanced data-logging features, all of these sensor readings and the results of the ECU changes are recorded, snapping a picture of the engine functions at any one point in time. The data can be recalled for analysis and used as a reference for future programming of the ECU.

    The TEC-3 can operate in either phased sequential or true sequential mode. Phased sequential means that the fuel injectors are activated multiple times per crankshaft cycle, once on an open valve and once on a closed valve. The 3.2L Carrera engine’s Motronic fuel injection is an example of a phased injection system. For example, the fuel injectors on the left bank of the 3.2 engine all open and close together. They share the same wiring harness, and are electrically controlled as a group. True sequential injection means that each injector is activated in close coordination with that cylinder’s ignition cycle. Fuel is squirted out of the injector in precise coordination with the opening and closing of the intake valve. Fuel is never injected into the cylinder head when the valve is closed. The 3.6 964 motors have true sequential injection, as did the early mechanical fuel injection engines. The mechanical fuel injection pump only pumps an injector when the intake valve is open, in precise synchronization with the complete combustion cycle of the engine. The TEC-3 operating in true sequential mode, smooths out the engine idle, and creates a cleaner running engine. At higher RPM, phased sequential and true sequential modes show virtually identical performance, as the injectors are firing almost continuously when the engine is running at high RPM.

    Another advantage to the TEC-3 system is its flexibility; it can be used on just about any engine. Its ability to run engines up to 12 cylinders means that it can be moved from one engine to another as you upgrade. It’s a very worthy investment that will be able to grow with you even if you upgrade your engine or your car.

    The TEC-3 is also an excellent choice for running twin-plugged systems. The twin-plugged ECU unit is only about $150 more than the standard single-plug unit. To run twin-plug ignition, all you will need is an additional coil pack. You need not worry about adapting a 964 distributor, or the cost and expense of an original RSR distributor or one that has been modified to use the expensive RSR cap and rotor ($800 at the time of this writing). When you factor in the cost savings in mechanical hardware, it makes the total cost of the TEC-3 system increasingly affordable. Compared to the potential costs associated with implementing a mechanical twin-plugged system, the TEC-3 makes sense.

    Pushing the limits of ultra-high performance, the TEC-3 also has 4 general output parameters (GPO) that can be controlled by any number of engine conditions. For instance, the system can automatically turn on cooling fans or open electric thermostats if the engine temperature or RPM increases past a certain threshold, or provide the driver with a custom-designed shift light on the dashboard. In what could be the ultimate performance system, the TEC-3 can control a variable turbo boost valve coupled with a knock sensor. This would allow you to run the maximum possible boost on a turbo or supercharged engine while actively monitoring and correcting for detonation. The engine management system can control this boost pressure, engine timing, and a host of other variables to achieve the highest possible boost without inflicting collateral damage. This system would be able to dynamically compensate for any octane fuel – automatically adjusting the timing and air-fuel ratio to squeeze the most power out of the engine.

    The TEC-3 system can also run in an open or closed-loop configuration with respect to air-fuel mixture measurement. Open-loop mode is useful for racers who run leaded race fuels that cannot be used in conjunction with an oxygen sensor. In this mode, the system reads measurements from its sensors, and then compares the readings to its internal program maps. Spark and fuel-mixture are controlled using these maps without correcting for changes that would normally be measured by the oxygen sensor.

    Another useful feature of the TEC-3 is its ability to self-diagnose problems that you are having with your engine’s sensors. The ECU has a ‘check engine’ warning lamp that will indicate if any of the engine’s sensors are producing faulty signals. The error codes isolating the exact problem can be quickly downloaded from the ECU for diagnosing the problem.
    The TEC-3 is not specifically designed for the 911 and thus requires some special adaptation to fit on the 911 engine. You can use custom-manifolds specifically designed for aftermarket engine management systems, or adapt the Motronic 3.2 manifolds and throttle plate for the task. Clewett Engineering of Manhattan Beach, California, is an excellent source for custom-made adapters and sensors that are required to adapt the TEC-3 and other Electromotive systems to the 911 engine (Figure 4-36). The Electromotive systems have earned a great reputation with 911 tuners.

    Needless to say, if you want to design the ultimate engine, you need to install some type of engine management system. The bottom line is that with a system like this, you can design and build any engine combination that you want. Whether it’s a twin-turbo charged boosted engine, or a super high 12:1 compression ratio engine that runs on pump gas, the engine management systems will be able to control and optimize it. The possibilities are truly endless and unbounded.

    -Wayne
     
  19. bostonmini

    bostonmini Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2003
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    curious more about modern V8's, surely there's some power to be gained by a 355 cam swap, or more likely a 360, shouldnt be as bad with torque loss if ECU is remapped to allow the VVT system to compensate somewhat, right?
     
  20. GaryReed

    GaryReed F1 Rookie
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    Daniel,

    The 348 info that I posted was quoted directly off of the FNA website.
    You can take it up with them, if you think it's wrong. ;)
     
  21. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    You might as well forget the whole idea. As you can see from the previous "naysayers", http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11820,
    you can't even get a stock cam for less than a $100,000 start up cost and a whole machine shop full of workers. So they would all probably fall over dead at the thought of tooling up for a hi-po cam.

    Most of this thread "de-volved" into a discussion about computerized injection systems. Why worry about injection systems when, judging from everybody's previous postings, nobody except the almighty Ferrari factory can manufacture a cam anyway?
     
  22. steve f

    steve f F1 World Champ

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    i had a ferrari and a lotus the belt snapped on the lotus bending the valves so i took the head of and had new valves fitted when it was ready i picked up the head in the ferrari and drove home and fitted the head back on the lotus so i had different cams in the ferrari but in the trunk do you get it now doooooooooooooooooooo
     
  23. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ
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    Wayne, Your original post (#3) cites the reason '79 and '80 cars were down on power was due to the CIS system hence my reply that the cars were carbureted up to 80 1/2.

    My friend has one of the 800 and some odd injected cars built in 80. It was he that told me the early 1980's 308's were carbed. Now that I think about it, the early '80's cars are actually late '79 cars.

    Could be wrong but I have never heard of a '79 injected car. I assume it's just a typo..................
     
  24. luke9583

    luke9583 Formula 3

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    Are you sure? I could have sworn it was 'crappy injection system'
     
  25. airbarton

    airbarton Formula 3

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    I don't know for sure but I think Daniel is correct. My 1990 348 has 2.7 motronic. It is possible that the former owner upgraded it as there are quite a few other upgrades on the car, but it looks like a factory installation. I seem to remember reading in another thread that Ferrari started to replace the 2.5 near the end of 1990 so the early 90's had the 2.5 while the late ones had the 2.7.
     

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