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Has anyone used Agip Brake Fluid

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by kdross, Nov 10, 2003.

  1. kdross

    kdross Formula Junior
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    Feb 10, 2002
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    Ken
    While browsing the Agip website, I noticed that they sell brake fluid too. Has anyone tried this product? Below is the info that is posted on their website along with a link. I will be flushing my brake fluid soon, and I am thinking of using this fluid in my 308QV.

    Ken



    AGIP BRAKE Fluid DOT-4 is a yellow-colored liquid, expressly formulated for disc and drum brake systems and for clutch control systems. With its high boiling point (265°C), AGIP BRAKE FLUID DOT-4 can be used with absolue safety.

    http://www.americanagip.com/products/moto4.htm
     
  2. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Owner Miami 2018

    Dec 1, 2000
    48,996
    Southlake, TX
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    Rob Lay
    My vote is for Ford High Performance Dot 3. Performs as well or better than most Dot 4's, but very inexpensive. Created awhile ago for all it's blue hairs in heavy Lincolns riding the brakes. I use it in my Rx7 race cars and Challenge.
     
  3. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    ford HD is good , cheap stuff.
    there's also ATE (slightly more), and then there's the castrol SRF and cobalt fluids at the top of the shelf.
    i 'll be running the cobalt fluid soon... after I replace my master cylinder.
     
  4. kdross

    kdross Formula Junior
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    Rob:

    Where can I puchase Ford High Performance Dot 3? The local Ford Dealer?

    Ken
     
  5. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 3, 2001
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    Randy
    yup, just go to the parts department. it's dirt cheap compared to the ATE stuff. I use the ATE stuff, but I get it in bulk.
     
  6. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    do you run the blue racing or the gold?
     
  7. Artherd

    Artherd F1 Veteran

    Jun 19, 2002
    6,587
    Bay Area, CA
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    Ben Cannon
    AGIP DOT 5.1 (glycol based like DOT 3 & 4. NOT silicone based like DOT 5! Are you sitting comfortably?) is supposed to be good.

    I use Motul 600 with great success. Also a user of ATE Super Blue, hasn't let me down either.

    Bleeding before and after each track day is far more important than how much your fluid costs though.

    Best!
    Ben.
     
  8. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    I'm with Ben - flogging around a 4000 lbs sedan, motul 600 did the trick beautifully @ thunderhill.

    --Dan
     
  9. John B

    John B Formula 3

    May 27, 2003
    1,513
    NJ
    I use Castrol SRF, expensive but no fade at the track.
    I also switched to Ferrodo DS2500 pads, they are a street/track pad.
    The combination has yielded very good results. About 15 minutes into a track session my brake pedal would get all spongy and hit the floor. I had to pump it up before real braking. Now zero fade after a full day of hard running. This is on a '99 Modena.
     
  10. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    Hey, where'd you get that 'blue-hair' statement?

    Yes, I've run the Agip brake fluid, it was mandatory in the first year of 348 Challenge. It's good stuff, but not worth hunting down and spending more than the Ford Heavy Duty (available at any Ford dealer) and not better than the Ford, which is made by Dow Corning.

    From here.
    Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 7:50 am:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This fluid is most commonly available through Ford Dealers as Heavy Duty Brake Fluid. Also available from Performance Friction "Z Rated", Wilwood 570, but Ford is cheapest. I first learned of this from Jack Roush Racing in 1989 while I was running a Trans Am race car. This was before Castrol SRF was available and Roush only used the Ford fluid, and it had nothing to do with sponsorship. As a DOT3 fluid, you can use this in your mini van and leave it there for ten years with no worries, you cannot do that with AP550, and AP will tell you so.

    There are other great products out there, but I have yet to find one with better performance for the cost. If you truly need SRF in your road car, you best be replacing the caliper seals every couple of track events and contemplate an evaporative brake cooling system. If you use Castrol SRF because you can justify the cost, go for it, it's great stuff, just way more expensive for an additional 40 degF dry boil specification. Caliper seals become brittle when consistently exposed to even 500degF, try baking one in your oven!

    Most soft brake pedal issues encountered at track events can be solved with flushing fresh fluid before the event, high temperature brake pads, and cool-off laps. Nothing exotic. Extreme cases can be solved with better cooling systems. Next solution is evaporative cooling, but I've only had to do this for F40's, no other Ferrari.

    Other links:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/185845.html
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/206666.html
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/233174.html


    All brake fluid is hygroscopic (except DOT5 silicone, which has many other problems).

    "Dow Brake Fluid HD50-4 is a high-performance brake fluid that far exceeds the minimum FMVSS-116 requirements for a DOT3 motor vehicle brake fluid. It is used by OEMs as a factoy-filled brake fluid (Ford for one-RS). It is also used as a high-performance brake fluid for the aftermarket (Perfomance Friction, Willwood, etc. - RS)" - from form 110-454B-990AMS Dow Chemical Company, September, 1990.

    __________ FMVSS-116 Requirement ________ Dow/Ford HD50-4
    Dry boiling point, min_________401oF__________568oF
    Wet boiling point, min__________284oF__________300o

    Corrosion
    Weight Change in mg/sq cm
    Tinned Iron, max____________0.2____________________0.00
    Steel, max_________________0.2____________________-0.01
    Aluminum, max_____________0.1____________________-0.02
    Cast Iron, max_____________0.2____________________+0.02
    Brass, max________________0.2____________________-0.01
    Copper, max______________0.4____________________-0.01

    Pitting or Roughening of
    Strips Discernible Without
    Magnification, max_________none__________________none

    Gelling of Fluid/Water,
    Mixture at
    73.4+/- 9oF, max_____none____________________none

    Crystalline Deposit on
    Glass Jar Walls or on
    Metal Strips, max_________none____________________none

    Sedimentation,
    Percent by Volume, max____0.10___________________none

    pH of Water / Fluid Mixture__7-11.5_________________8.8

    Disintegration of Rubber
    Cup as Evidenced by
    Stickiness, Blisters of
    Sloughing, max___________none___________________none

    Increase in Base Diameter
    of Rubber Cup, max_______1.4mm or 0.055in__________0.014 in

    Water Tolerance

    @ -40oF
    Stratification or Sedimentation,
    Sludging or Crystallization, max__none_______________none

    Time for Air Bubble
    to Travel to Top, max_______10 seconds____________1 second

    @140oF
    Stratification, max__________none_________________none

    Sedimentation, Percent
    by Volume, max___________0.05_________________none

    Resistance to Oxidation
    Weight Loss in mg/sq cm
    Aluminum, max____________0.05_________________0.01
    Cast Iron, max____________0.3__________________0.01

    Simulated Service Performance (85,000 strokes, 248 +/- 9oF)
    Change in Initial
    Diameter of Any
    Cylinder or Piston, max____0.005in________________none

    Condition of Fluid
    After Test; Evidence
    of Gelling, max_________none__________________none


    "Without the data, it's only an opinion" - Enzo Ferrari c. 1950


    Best regards,

    Rob Schermerhorn
     
  11. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    552
    Tyngsborough, MA
    I would highly recommed sticking to either the Motul 600 or ATE high performance fluid. Both offer high temp ratings, do not cost too much and can be mixed with generic fluids in an emergency. The Castrol SRF is the best fluid available but cannot be mixed with any other normal fluid or it gels up causing seriousl braking issues. It is really only recommended for heavy duty track racers or a full out race car(this came form a Castrol rep.'s mouth). I would try to get the Motul (can be hard to find) or the ATE Superblue.
     
  12. BigHead

    BigHead Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2003
    992
    Outside of Boston
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    I thought that if the brake fluid is rated DOT 4 (or 3, for that matter), it can, by virtue of that rating, be mixed with any other DOT 4 fluid without problems? E.g., mixing Castrol SRF with other DOT 4 fluids should not cause "gelling" issues. It's certainly not anything that I've heard before. Maybe the Castrol rep is just trying to move more SRF off the shelf? For $60 a liter (!!!), it damn well better not cause any problems with your braking system!

    Update: from the Castrol website - "Castrol SRF exceeds the US Federal Standards FMVSS 116 DOT 3 and DOT 4, ISO 4925, JIS K2233 and current SAE J1703 and is miscible with all conventional brake fluids conforming to these standards. However, mixing Castrol SRF and conventional brake fluids will reduce the benefits of Castrol SRF. It is strongly recommended that conventional brake fluid be drained from the system before flushing and re-filling with Castrol SRF." So, it CAN be mixed with any other DOT rated fluid, it just won't have the same benefits.

    The Ford HD fluid is great, and I've recommended that before. But please note that it does have a relatively low boiling point (it's "only" DOT 3 rated), so I would use it in applications where I'm flushing the fluid relatively frequently and NOT in applications where it's sitting in the car for years and years.

    It should be noted that the difference between DOT 3 and DOT 4 is the difference in dry and wet boiling points; see chart here: http://www.centralcoastweb.com/nsxb/pages/m17.html

    Many good fluids are rated DOT 3, in spite of the fact that their dry boiling point is very, very high, because their wet boiling point is relatively low. The wet boiling point is not as important for track applications, because it never has a chance to absorb that much moisture.

    Oh, and FWIW, there is no difference between ATE Super Blue and Gold/Super 200/Typ 200; same fluid, different coloring. I use these two, alternating, because it's easier to tell when you've hit new fluid while flushing. Fairly cheap by the case too; less than $11/liter (though Ford HD is usually about half that). Rumor has it that Super Blue is no longer available (dealers still clearing out NOS), as it doesn't meet DOT requirements for COLOR. Despite ATE's relatively "low" dry boiling point, in 80+ track days, using a good pad in stock brake systems, I've never ever boiled my brakes - and I outbrake nearly everyone in a street car.

    So, bottom line, ANY DOT 4 fluid will be perfectly fine for any street application, and almost any DOT 3 fluid will be fine as well. For track use, unless you find yourself boiling brake fluid, most DOT 4 fluid will be fine too. I would use the cheapest I can find that fits my purpose. In other words, there is no "magic" in AGIP fluid.

    vty,

    --Dennis
     
  13. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    Relatively low compared to what? Castrol SRF at $55/ liter? Ford (Dow Corning) HD brake fluid: Dry boiling point: 568 degF.
    I agree with your conclusion. Though the Ford is less expensive. Read my post, it lists DOT 3 specifications vs. actual performance of the Ford HD fluid. The reason it's rated DOT 3 is it was formulated for OEM's, requiring long-term stability, and anti-corrosive properties. It's the best of all possible deals, high dry boil, affordable, and you can leave it in your tow vehicle for years without concern.

    You've had good results with other fluids because they're also high quality and you flush the system regularly. Great. You're also spending more money for a bit less high heat capacity, which is fine too.

    Bottom line with the whole DOT 3 / 4 thing is one must get the actual performance data for the actual fluid, not the FMVSS minimum specifications, which mislead as racer's misunderstand the technicalities.


    Best regards,

    Rob Schermerhorn
     
  14. BigHead

    BigHead Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2003
    992
    Outside of Boston
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    Dennis
    Rob, when I originally typed "... please note that it does have a relatively low boiling point (it's "only" DOT 3 rated)", I meant to insert the word "wet" in there, so it would read "relatively low WET boiling point".

    The whole quote is, "The Ford HD fluid is great, and I've recommended that before. But please note that it does have a relatively low boiling point (it's "only" DOT 3 rated), so I would use it in applications where I'm flushing the fluid relatively frequently and NOT in applications where it's sitting in the car for years and years."

    Rob, the link I posted in my response actually DID list the actually boiling points, wet and dry, for a bunch of brake fluids, as well as the FMVSS specs. If one takes a look at the specs for the Ford HD on that page, it lists 550°F (287°C), 284°F (140°C), dry and wet, respectively.

    As I've said before, I think the Ford HD is a great fluid for track use, and cheap and available; the problem is that its WET boiling point is LOW, relatively speaking. Most of the DOT 4 fluids available have a WET boiling point almost 100 degrees HIGHER than the Ford HD.

    As stated in my quote, if you're going to leave the fluid "sitting in the car for years and years", where it will absorb moisture, I'd spend a few more dollars and use a good DOT 4 fluid with a much higher WET boiling point. Theoretically, if you've got a car with, say, 2-3 year old fluid, and it's absorbed some moisture, you could cause the fluid to boil under heavy street use (e.g., coming down a mountain, or, worse, coming down a mountain in a tow vehicle with one's Ferrari in the enclosed trailer behind you! :) ).

    So, Rob, I think we agree on almost everything else. :) PLEASE NOTE: I do NOT use Castrol SRF!!! As I said, I use ATE, at ~$11, and not SRF at ~$55!!! I included the quote on the SRF simply to point out that what the Castrol representative told TCM was misleading.

    I use ATE, even though it costs me an additional ~$5 per brake fluid flush, simply because (a) it's easier for me to see the color change when flushing, and (b) I use my street cars year-round, and if I go the winter between fluid changes, I want to make sure that I don't have boiling issues if my wife use the brakes really hard in March, say on our regular tours of the White Mountains, before I've had a chance to flush. Incredibly unlikely, but $5 is short money for peace of mind, even for a cheap ba$tard like me! :) Again, it's only $6 v. $11 (Ford v. ATE), and NOT $55 for SRF!

    ONE LAST SEMI-RELATED NOTE: I think a lot of people don't realize that braking problems are often driver-caused. For a given car, slowing from, say, 100 mph to 50 mph, two different drivers will have shed the same amount of kinetic energy, but the method used in braking can result in brakes boiling for one driver and no problems for another. At the track, in equivalent cars with the same braking systems, I've seen one driver boil his fluid, wear out his pads and destroy his rotors, while another driver gets multiple days out of the same set.

    vty,

    --Dennis
     
  15. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    552
    Tyngsborough, MA
    Dennis:

    That is the odd part, the Castrol rep deterred us from getting SRF unless we planned on changing the entire braking system (lines, calipers, master cylinder,etc.). You really cannot go wrong with ATE SuperBlue or Motul. 95% of the performance for the 14%? of the price. That 5% performance will not come into play unless someone is really pushing it.
     
  16. rexrcr

    rexrcr Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2002
    1,572
    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Rob Schermerhorn
    Yes! I realize I'm picking nits on the Ford/Wilwood/Performance Friction/Dow brake fluid.
    Totally agree.

    Rob
     

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