Have the Scuderia been holding back???

"Michael Schumacher scored two points in Japan yesterday to retain his third place in the F1 Drivers’ series, while at the same time securing Ferrari’s similar placing in the Constructors’ series.'

http://www.italiaspeed.com/

I've kind of lost interest this year but from a casual observer it seems that they can turn it on enough when they need to. Is it any coincidence that MS retains 3rd and Ferrari secures same for Constructors'?

Have the boys in red been holding back because of budgets or is it some other back room agreement? If they are back in form next year there may be some truth to this. Anyone else think there's something fishy going on with their consistently poor showing this year?(but not poor enough to not finish worse than 3rd ) Of course we'll never know the real reasons.

 

There are those who believe that Ferrari were compensated in exchange for allowing others to win.

I think they just had a sh**ty car and therefore a sh**ty year.

 

Ferrari is slow. Very Slow.

 

Not slower than 3rd though

 

Interesting point about if Ferrari are holding back. I had recorded the Monaco Grandprix '05 on my Tivo and was watching it yesterday. Micheal was really fast and he set the fastest lap in the middle of the race. It was the same case in Bahrain, Spain, Canada and San Marino. I know it is do to tyres, but now the their tyres are even worse than when they first started, or at least that what we think. It amazing to me that everybody else went forward and Ferrari went backwards.

 

Anyone who watched the team throughout the year have to agree with this statement. The way Alonso powered away from Schu was not something Michael would have allowed under any circumstance. If Ferrari were holding something back, they would have had mechanical issues and breakdowns in order to throw the championship.

No mistake, this car package was worse than the F2003 GA

 

Total conspiracy.

 

I, too, think there was some backroom dealings here with Ferrari to back off or something, whether for money or for "the good of F1." i.e. people were complaining that watching F1 is boring since it always ends the same, with Ferrari winning the drivers and constructors. So, to keep people watching, Ferrari were told to let others win.

I found it odd in Japan that Alonso was so EASILY able to blow by Schumacher... it's just amazing that a team that completely and utterly dominated a sport so many years in a row is suddenly mid-pack at best. I say midpack because the USGP was gimme points for Ferrari.... remove those and Micahel drops at minimum to 6th place in drivers, and would be at best tied for 3rd in constructors (i.e. remove 18 points from Ferrari).

I guess it's just hard for me to see Renault get THAT much better in one year, while Ferrari hardly any (if any) improvement.

Despite this, this has been a pretty good season -- it was interesting to see other teams on the podium...

I don't see, however, how this helps the sport since Alonso dominated this year so much... that's not so different from MS doing the same thing.. (except that he's been doing it so many years in a row...).

 

How much slower would he have had to go before you wouldn't think it was a conspiracy? that is was just a bad year? 4th? 5th? last? what if they got second?

 

I think Ferrari has "taken a dive" for this season. I think the Scuderia was paid off by Bernie Ecclestone to the tune of $180 mil or thereabouts (coincidentally the same amount allegedly offered to Kimi to replace Schumi). The continued dominance of Ferrari was becoming unprofitable for F1. This is, after all, a business, and one in which Ferrari has a considerable stake. In the big picture it became necessary to have the illusion of some real competition, and this has proven true with the record revenues generated this year by the Renault/Mercedes battles. What is good for F1 is ultimately good for Ferrari, and next year they will return to dominance with even greater glory (kinda like the 3rd Ali-Frasier fight, or the Rocky movies - the defeated champ musters up one more heroic effort to regain his crown. This is good stuff!).

By cooling it this season, all Ferrari's resources could be directed to development of the V-8 car for 2006, giving them an edge, while the other teams are still worried about the present championship race. All of the present chassis will be obsolete for use with a V-8, so everyone starts with a clean slate next year.

Some still say it is all the tires, but come on - Bridgestone has considerable technical resources. Surely they could have corrected any deficiencies by mid-season. And if they are so bad, why have several more teams switched from Michelin for 2006?

Anybody find it curious that nobody at Ferrari seems at all upset with their fall from grace this year? Not Luca, Jean, Schumi. They win a kazillion races last year and can't even make the podium this season and nobody is mad??? It's like they all know something we don't.

And why is it that MS can set fastest lap in the middle of a race on so many occasions, seemingly at will? Maybe he just wants the other drivers to know that they should enjoy their victories while they can and let them know he's not through yet.

Jean Todt is the ultimate strategist, and he knows what it will take to keep F1 popular in a global market. Bernie is not stupid and could give a crap who stands on the podium as long as the grandstands are full and the TV ratings are strong. Give one season to ensure 10 more. I can't wait until 2006. The Tifosi shall be vindicated and Schumi will have his 8th crown...

 

The consp was that the tires were not to be changed. Every rule every year including the points structure was to try and have ferrari lose. In the 2004/2005 season they succeed...period. Now the rules are back to tire changes for 2006. Ferrari will probably be back on top next year for Shumi final drive and retirement.
Nice way to end at the top....

 

maybe they just lost it because they weren't fast enough period. No team can win it EVERY single year. I don't believe for a second that they threw the season.

 

IMO aside from throwing the year the only other thing that could have held them back was if their required budget to win was cut back. If they missed the boat with the wrong car then maybe the powers that be said that you've got to make it work with what you've got or wait till next year. So, for the rest of the year they were lame ducks. That doesn't explain the tire screw ups though. The budget thing seems unlikely.

The fact that they managed to sneek in with a third seems suspect IMO. If they were that crappy then you'd think it would have been a total blow out.

 

Man some or the responses on this thread are unbelievable. Do you guys know anything about the sport?

Do you honestly think Ferrari would take a dive like this? ... ofcourse not. They make heaps more than $180 million each year on sponsorship alone (I believe) and sponsorship rate has a lot to do with your results. Thus taking a dive for one year could affect them for many ...

Also are you so thick that you do not realise that in most years of F1 there is only 2 competitive teams, infact for the last 5 there has really only been 1 ... thus for Ferrari to sneak into third does not show they are sandbagging but that they are so bad that they are having to fight with F1 also rans!

Renault and McLaren are miles out in front and Ferrari are fighting with Toyota, Williams (utter cr@p this year), etc. ... and fighting on the track with Jordans!!!!!! (you cannot get much worse than this).

Now for those that cannot understand why one year the car is fantastic and the next utter cr@p ... well you obviously missed the big rule changes for this year and also do not understand how the sport works.

Lets start with 'Why have Ferrari dominated for the last 5 years?'

Ferrari have dominated because they finally got all the components of a successful team right, good designers, good drivers, good management, stability, etc. This is always cyclic as you cannot have everything perfect all the time.

ALSO McLaren were rebuilding, so were Renault, so are Williams, etc. thus while Ferrari had it right, their opposition were not quite ready to challenge hard. Yep they came close but not all their cards were lined up.

Now Renault have finally got the designer they needed, the team structure, etc. and McLaren have finally got their radical car working!@!!!!

Note the radical comment. While Ferrari have been warming over last years car every year for the last 4 other teams have been starting with a clean sheet and inventing NEW ideas for a F1 car ... this process has born fruit for McLaren who are now probably years ahead of the rest. Ferrari because they are a revolutionary design team and not radical thinkers are now a few years behind the times.

As we all know Ferrari have restructured their team for next year and also like everybody else new rules to design to ... but what they are still behind on is how Renault and McLaren managed to get the level of downforce they have with the current aero rules. Yep Ferrari have missed something and because people (not just computers) are involved when you design something this happens. Just like the other teams could not catch Ferrari when they had that advantage.

This is what happens in any technology driven sport ... it is impossible to be the best team for ever, and Ferrari do extremely well (like McLaren) at staying in the top 3 for almost their whole F1 career. Look at Williams struggling at the moment ... heck back in Prost and Mansell days they were winning by laps.

I suggest you put the joint down and face reality. Ferrari is run by mere people, and like you and me they don't always get it right!
Pete

 

... that the difference between the fastest car (the McLaren) and the slowest car (the Jordan or Minardi) is actually not that much. Lets analyse:

1. To finish a race a single lap behind (not far from where Ferrari has been this year) you are finishing close to 60 second behind (yep I'm using 1 lap = 60 seconds to make the maths easy).

2. Thus in a 60 lap race (yep again for easy maths) you are only 1 second per lap average slower.

3. Now on a track with 10 corners that equates to loosing ONLY 1/10th of a second per corner, and that is assuming you race down the straights even.

4. But we know that Ferrari lack downforce, thus they are probably running more wing than McLaren to try and compensate ... which equates to more drag, so they are probably loosing half that second per lap slower on the straights, thus the other 0.5 lets say is lost in the 10 corners. Thus this pathetic F2005 is only 1/20th of a second slower through a corner than the McLaren rocketship!!!!.

That is bugger all, and thus can you now see how it is very possible for the dominating team to make a small mistake and end up struggling with the field filler teams.
Pete
ps: And also the Minardi's and yep even Jordan's are not so pathetic after all ...

 

Hey, what's this? Sensible responses?

That about sums it up. Change the rules enough times and eventually Ferrari will get it wrong, or at least not as right as some other team.

For the rest, wow, Wal-Mart must be running out of tinfoil hats...but you are not alone: there's a thread on another board where someone is claiming Senna's car was deliberately sabotaged and he was murdered....

 

well, this car is WAY worst than the GA, but it's rather funny. look at japan for example, schumi made a briliant start, up to 5th, from way bahind the pack, but why? why suddenly the loss of speed? why? this is not the 1st time, it happened in hungary as well, and if i can recall, a few more races. why? why a sudden drop of speed or loss of speed somewhere around midway the race? tyres? common guys, this is ferrari we are talking about. they had what...18 races to figure things out for the tyres, yet till today, this present day, no solutions? funny...technical side? aero side? i think the only front runner team struggling with aero is williams. what i can't just figure out is, why is the car just keep running out of steam midway? after all tjose briliant laps? look at monaco, imola, bahrain..superb laps by schumi, but i just can;t figure out what happens and the car just practically slows down. well, i believe, something fishy is going on. for a team that have dominated since 1999, and now, they mid pack? they can;t even go for podiums, yet from 1999, they at least winning races..so...i just can;t wait for 2006, and put this freakin season behind me. don't get me wrong, ferrari are unbeatable, but they way the were beaten were shameful! there's hardly a fightback at all..

 

sorry Pete, you fail to see how big business works, they took a dive to keep the sport alive.

Ferrari were killing it, in every respect....... have you ever seen the team take this so lightly that they are pathetic, can't build a car, MS go "oh well"

I smell a stinky fish because you don't go from 5 years dominance to absolute also-rans the next AND take it as lightly as the team has.

I pure idealistic sportsman terms I agree but add the greed factor of killing the goose that laid the golden egg and this is what you get...

OTOH it may have just been a **** car

 

Wow, PSK, you are a bit harsh with those that posted opinions that do not coincide with yours. "Are you so thick" and "put the joint down", not to mention your arrogance in thinking you know what you are talking about-what a ****ty approach you have.

Point is, you might be right. Point is, so may some of the others that posted with opposite opinions. If you understood the sport yourself, if you understood the politics of F1 yourself, you would likely understand that it is not that far fetched that Ferrari would be asked to "slow down" for a year or two. TV viewership began to go down in uncomfortable numbers, paid attendance started to do the same. Another Ferrari year, and who knows what would have happened to the fan base. What about the monies the team earn based on their year end finish? I can name at least 4 teams that need the money a whole bunch more than Ferrari. Even McLaren is in financial trouble because someone thought it would be really great to have a home base that makes many Palm Beach mansions look shoddy.

Now, the population of Spain has become newbie F1 fans, not to mention the affiliation the Latin community feels, and the French are happy because Renault will likely win the Manufacturer's Championship. The British are happy because McLaren is winning, period. Even Sauber using a "similar" Ferrari engine did well this year. What an interesting boost to F1!! Sponsors gotta love it, promoters gotta love it, TV ad sales agents gotta love it, etc. everyone except the Tifosi, which still turn out despite the end results on race day.

Certainly the Bridgestones have not been the best, but guess what, Ferrari has been on rather mediocre Bridgestones every year they won the championship. Bad chassis? Sure, so why weren't there changes during the season that would have made at least a small difference? How come MS set the fast lap of the race during many of this year's GP's?? Do you remember how MS did with a Benetton that was not up to par with the Williams in those year's past, and still won the championship?

Sorry, but I think those of you that suggest there might have been some "sandbagging" by Ferrari this year have more going for them than those that suggest it was just a bad year for the best team in F1.

At any rate, at this point in time, who cares? I am anxiously awaiting the 2006 season.

 

Well atleast I've wound you up ... PSk is not Mr Perfect PC, sorry. I guess also I cannot, make that do not, want to believe that F1 is just as fixed as every other sport. While I reluctantly accept that deals are done ... I do not accept that any team would throw a whole season just for $$$$'s. Some things are more important than money ... and I also believe it would cost Ferrari more in the long run anyway.

Ferrari were perfectly happy to win whenever, however (think Austria a few years ago and how that stuffed F1 to many ... Ferrari only care about winning not the future of F1) ... thus I cannot see the same team acepting yeah I'll slow down. Ferrari would not even save the USGP and still raced to get their win ... the same team would not take a dive. No way.

Also (and Moretti this answers your point too), if Ferrari gave a single toss about the health of F1 and NOT just winning it then they would have sacked RB ages ago and replaced him with a driver that could push MS. This was ALL that was required to save F1.

It was NOT Ferrari's dominance that was making it boring, it was Ferrari's team orders and slack number 2 that was killing it. Remember the great racing with Senna versus Prost at McLaren ... that is all we needed, a decent driver in the second Ferrari ... ie. NOT RB.

And yep who cares roll on next year.
Pete
ps: BTW Ferrari have admitted, and we could all see, that this years car actually was a piece of ****, just like F2003-GA was, but they were lucky that year and managed to save a WC.

 

Imagine yourself in M.Schmacher's position.

7 times WChampion , driving for the most famous car maker in the World.

racing blood in your veins.

racing blood in every one in the team.

you're told to go-slow , not just for a couple of races , but for a whole year.

even if you did agree (ratings , fanbase , whatever) , when you're in the
cockpit , I think it would be real tough to hold back.

 

Exactly ... this guy perfectly happily took wins of his team mates ... he aren't going to take a dive! No way.

Pete

 

... Ferrari didn't win in 1980, are you telling me that the team took a dive then or for the whole 21 years?

Come on guys they just won for 5 years on the trot, that is fncken fantastic and I think no other team has ever managed to do that ... but they had to loose eventually.

I say well done Ferrari, but lets move on ... they are still one of the best F1 teams, hopefully they will win again in way less than 21 years.

Pete

 

PSK, so what about Ferrari making an agreement with Bernie for 2008 and beyond that they are commited to F1, even though the other manufacturers are thinking of creating a break away series? As for the USGP, I personally think Ferrari helped the sport by putting on a show for the fans. I think they help save the USGP. Yes Ferrari made some mistakes in the past that did cause some controversy in F1. But it did not compare to fiasco at the USGP. If anybody is hurting the sport, it is the other manufacturers. Ferrari has not complained one bit about the rules and the money. You don't see Ferrari making a big deal about the percentage of TV revenue they get from F1. You don't see them whining about tires, engine and chassis regulations. Take the V8 motors for next year. Mclaren, BMW and the rest of the manufacturers made a big ordeal. Did you see Ferrari complain about it? I don't think so. Another example, is next year the FIA is willing to bring back changing tires. Do you know who is having a problem with it? Uh, Michelen. Why, because Ferrari can be once more a threat. So you see with all the new rules and regulations which were put into place for Ferrari. I would think they would be the first one to sign up for the break away series. But instead, they have decided to stick around and support F1.

 

Cause they get most of it

Look I agree with most of what you have said in this last post, I just do not agree that Ferrari have taken or would take a dive. And I most definitely do not believe Ferrari cannot make a bad car ... heck they even make not so good road cars every now and then

I also have to say that Ferrari are sticking with F1 for themselves not for F1's sake. They understand the marketing implications of winning F1 WC's ... and yes I guess they want it to continue, BUT:

If they wanted F1 to not take the hit and bore everybody to death like it did over the last 5 years, they would not wait until now and take a dive, they would simply have sacked RB and dropped their team order cr@p. Much simplier and they would not have to snck like they have this year.

In the end they have just made another bad car. Remember how bad the F2003-GA was, remember how they only just won that WC. No difference except this year Renault and finally McLaren have their act together ... but back in 2003 they didn't and even though the F2003-GA was a piece of **** they were lucky and still won.

Is it so hard to believe that the humanbeings at Ferrari have made a mistake? ... they are not Gods
Pete