News

Head gaskets

Discussion in '308/328' started by TommyA, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    I have removed the heads on my 2 valve 308 and upon clean up of the block surfaces I realized that there are very small imperfections on the surface. Will this hurt me once everything is back together? I will be using Elring head gaskets. Any thoughts?
     
  2. thorn

    thorn Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 7, 2012
    2,056
    Tallahassee, FL
    Perhaps a pic or two. Our idea of imperfect may be different.
     
  3. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
    766
    California SF area
    Full Name:
    Paul
    The pitting on the liner protrusion might give you some trouble but there's not much you can do about it. Best course of action now is see if it works. Why did you get here in the first place?
     
  4. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    A week after I purchased the vehicle I developed a water pump failure. (has been years) with antifreeze going in to one side only. The other side of the block looks just fine. So since I have the time now, I'm back on the vehicle wrenching. Going EFI with COP and the Motec 800. The heads are perfect. New SS valves, guides and springs have been installed. I inspected the block very carefully and it appears to be ok. Do you recommend using a light sealer on the gasket or install them just like that?
     
  5. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    70,748
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    I would ask our sponsor Ricambi US about the head gaskets, there's been some issues with generic ones, that said, the ones you have may be fine!
     
  6. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    if I recall the head gasket issue was with the 4 valve engines?
     
  7. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    5,205
    TX//Mexico/UK
    Full Name:
    Mike 996
    I would be reluctant to re-assemble without taking the necessary steps to correct that. But, admittedly, correcting it would be expensive and, heck, it might work fine for the life of the car as-is with suitable head gaskets. For me, it would be a constant source of wondering if it will begin leaking at some point and I'd have a hard time with the mental aspect! As I have said many times re maintenance/repair issues, it's all about what YOU are comfortable with. ;)
     
    Hinecker likes this.
  8. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    Mike I agree with you. I'm not comfortable at all with it. I'm trying to work with what I have right now. What about if I use the Permatex Aviation form a gasket No.3 sealant liquid on the block side only since the heads have been machined already?
     
  9. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
    766
    California SF area
    Full Name:
    Paul
    The stuff on the block side I wouldn't worry too much about, the Elring gaskets already have silicone seals around all of the oil and coolant ports. It's the corrosion on the liners that is your concern, that is the combustion seal and no form-a-gasket is going to stand up to that. The metal seal ring on the head gasket gets crushed when you torque it down however so it's possible it will work. As I said, depending on how deep you want to get into it you have two choices - put it together and see if it works or replace those liners, which means pretty much do a complete major overhaul and all the cash that entails. I don't think smearing RTV over stuff is going to make any difference one way or another.
     
    Hinecker likes this.
  10. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    Is that normal to have corrosion on the liners? The vehicle has only 21k miles but has not been used for the past 10 years.
     
  11. thorn

    thorn Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 7, 2012
    2,056
    Tallahassee, FL
    Corrosion and pitting is a factor of metal and fluid reaction, moreso than mileage. Brake fluid (for example) will slowly degrade and eventually ruin the lines, whether the car is driven or not. Leave metal in contact with a liquid long enough, and eventually there's a chemical reaction of some sort.

    I've seen worse pitting, but won't offer an opinion on how badly yours will affect the engine's behavior. I will say I wouldn't use any goopy sealant. It sounds like you're spending quite a bit of time and money on the rebuild replacing other things with new components, so if it were me in your situation - I'd be looking into having the surfaces machined and replacing the liners.
     
  12. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    It's very tempting to go that route but knowing myself I will not stop at replacing just the liners...$$$ . Thank you all for the advise.
     
  13. derekw

    derekw Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 7, 2010
    967
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Derek W
    The Elring gaskets don’t have a seal around all the water passages. Put some high temp silicone around the bare ones. See my blog here on Fchat for pics. How is your liner protrusion? I would be more worried about the liner o-rings and coolant leaks than the combustion seal. These blocks/heads are more known for coolant migration.

    Since the engine is out already it makes sense to check the crank and bearings (may be worn or pitted), replace the liner O-rings, replace pilot and cam drive bearings and seals, rings if needed. Spend money on the basics before the extras (motec etc.)
     
  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    9,149
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    and ... there goes that slippery slope ….
     
    308 milano and Saabguy like this.
  15. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    I just checked the gaskets and you are correct! The Elring head gaskets don't have the seal around the water passages. If this is my only issue I was looking at the permatex copper spray. They recommend it on head gaskets. Any thoughts?
     
  16. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    Unfortunately the motec and efi were purchased and completed years ago. I just got around to remove the block. I was not expecting to find the issues that I have with it.
     
  17. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
    766
    California SF area
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Mine did but then I have a QV so maybe that's the difference. There was also some talk about counterfeit gaskets so check your hologram label.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
  19. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    After inspecting all cylinders I found that the cylinder where I had the gasket failure has been pitted. Running my nail on it doesn't grab but it's there. The rest of the linings are in very good condition and the cross lines are very visible on the surfaces. What options do I have to correct that cylinder? Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  20. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
    766
    California SF area
    Full Name:
    Paul
    To be honest, if it were me, I'd just put it together, run it hard and see what happens. What do you have to lose?
     
  21. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    5,205
    TX//Mexico/UK
    Full Name:
    Mike 996
    If the piston wasn't there, a couple of light passes with an appropriate grit hone would easily clean that up BUT because the piston is there, the hone can't be moved up/down far enough to get the correct cross-hatch. Is the cross hatch visible in the corroded area? If it is, it would seal OK IF the rings themselves weren't damaged by the corrosion. But you can't tell that with everything assembled. :(

    It might run just fine for the rest of it's natural life if you just buttoned it up with proper gaskets/standard sealing procedures!

    Or it might not. :(
     
  22. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    Mike I can't see the cross hatch in that area. I want to say that the rings are ok but you can't tell. After I cleaned things up and oil the liner, I rotated the engine multiple times and I did not see any scoring from the rings. It appears the damage was caused by the residual AF sitting on the liner for some time.
     
  23. Hinecker

    Hinecker Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2011
    290
    Afternoon all,
    Apart prom the pits, I would check that the block is not warped, had this problem with my 328.

    Hope this helps.

    John.
     
  24. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 7, 2002
    336
    Sharpsburg, GA.
    Full Name:
    Tommy A
    I guess I could remove the piston and hone the liner thus will give me a better view of the piston and rings. What grade would you recommend using?
    One good thing... I have a trip to UK this week and I could also get a new liner just in case I can't shape the original. They are fairly inexpensive.
     

Share This Page