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Head gaskets

Discussion in '308/328' started by TommyA, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
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    California SF area
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    Paul
    This reaches back to the beginning. Have you made any determination as to what caused this breach in the first place? How long did it sit with coolant in the cylinders (I think you mentioned "years") Do you have any idea how deep the pitting is on the liners and the piston?

    The bottom line is that if you want to fix this properly you're going down the rabbit hole because once you have it apart and get to a certain investment point it's no longer a matter of fixing the problem and becomes a complete overhaul. You're not, for instance, going to reuse the old journal bearings or rod bolts. You probably don't want to replace only half of the liners and pistons. Polish the crank and clean out the oil galleries? The list goes on.

    But, on the other hand, maybe that's what you really want to do. It's you're call.
     
  2. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    Mitchell Le
    If I were you, I would replace the liner and rings on that cylinder and move on. Forget the honing it. One liner, cheap fix.
     
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  3. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    Oct 7, 2002
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    I agree. Problem is that they will not sell me the rings for just one piston, they are selling complete sets. Any ideas?
     
  4. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    Oct 7, 2002
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    I really don't want to re-do the whole block unless it becomes a must :(. I have not teared the block completely so at the present time I'm going only by what I see.
    I think it will be safe though to get a new liner since I will be in UK. and deal with it once I get back.
     
  5. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    How much for a set of rings for all 8?
     
  6. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    Oct 7, 2002
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    399 British P. $482 US.
     
  7. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    That is steep. You can always send your piston to Total Seal and get them to make you rings for one Cyl. Even for all eight, I think it is cheaper than that at Total Seal.
     
  8. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    Oct 7, 2002
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    Yeah... I guess I have another 2 weeks before I have to deal with it. Maybe a member has some that I could purchase. If not than I will get with total seal. Thank you
     
  9. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Paul
    Okay, is it only the one liner and piston that have the corrosion? Hard to tell from the pictures. You still need to determine what caused the breach initially. If the block surface isn't true replacing the liner isn't going to fix it. All I'm saying is that once you start putting money into it you don't want to stop 3/4 of the way and the more you invest the more important the other little things matter.

    On the other hand chasing perfection can become a compulsive disorder. Perfection only lasts for a moment, as soon as you fire it up the first time things begin to degrade. Heck, even sitting in the garage your Ferrari is slowly and inexorably trying to return to the ore from which it was forged, (ha, ha)

    Good luck whichever way you choose to go.
     
  10. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    Oct 7, 2002
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    It's only the one liner that has pitted. The rest are very good. Not sure right now if the piston is damaged or not. Once I remove it I'll get a better idea. I guess if everything checks ok I will replace the damaged liner and move on.
     
  11. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    I just gave them a call. $100 per piston + shipping to and from :(
     
  12. Saabguy

    Saabguy Formula 3
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    Mar 28, 2012
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    Rats. I would have said button it all back up and drive it until or if you KNOW there is a problem. You will never notice a problem from the cylinder had you put it all back together. You will notice lots of cash and time disappearing as you fix problems for which you have no symptoms. Leaking cylinder head, tested for, fix it. A little discoloration on one patch of a cylinder...
     
  13. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    I thought about it but I will be kicking myself if there is a problem... Just the head gasket is over $600 to replace again.... All the hours of labor.. Very risky.
     
  14. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    It's not the discoloration. If you detach the image and enlarge it you will see all the pitting on it.
     
  15. Saabguy

    Saabguy Formula 3
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    Mar 28, 2012
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    The amount of compression loss would NOT be measurable by anything other than a laboratory.


     
  16. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    That's a very encouraging statement!
     
  17. derekw

    derekw Formula Junior
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    It’s not the compression loss, it’s the even and correct compression of the gasket around the combustion chamber— might blow the gasket. If the pitting is outside the seal ring of the gasket you’re ok, otherwise get a new or good used sleeve, or find an engineering shop that can spray metal into the pits.
     
  18. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    What about applying permatex cooper spray on the gasket?
     
  19. derekw

    derekw Formula Junior
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    Sep 7, 2010
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    I think a thin smear around each water hole (both sides) is better than spray. If you use spray don’t get any on cylinder seals.

    That pitting is from water migration through the head gasket. Two of my sleeves had pitting on the cylinder walls, very shallow and light home fixed it. I would hone that one sleeve, measure ring end gap in that cylinder and if ok (incl bearings) assemble with new sleeve o-rings.
     
  20. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    The only reason that I'm kinda stuck on spraying the gasket with it is to try and seal all the small imperfections on the surface.
     
  21. smg2

    smg2 F1 Veteran
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    You guys are over thinking this. Loctite 30517 will work wonderfully, better then copper spray. The pitting on the block is normal. On the liner that happens when it sits for long periods with moisture in it, another reason to start and run your engines to temp at least once a month, preferably weekly.
    Sure you could go down the rabbit hole of tearing it all apart... Caution you will find things to fix and it will get expensive. Unless you're going for full resto, stop here.
    The 3x8 series engines are crazy flexible, couple of points, do not tq the heads down with the cams in place, do not tq the heads down with block on an engine stand must be on the bench or mounted to the gearbox. Do not tq the heads down in one go, tq them to ~36lbs then wait 6-8 hrs or over night, then final tq. Yrs of building these engines to 500+hp has yielded these things.
    Elring no longer MFG the gaskets like they used to, it's a problem for the 308/328 engines now. Ferrari uses the entire deck as a water jacket... Yeah that design is rife with issues, the OEM gaskets were "3D" embossed to make that work, gaskets like that do not exist anymore. That's why I now use the loctite sealant, stuff works great on boosted engines as well. It's a thin tacky tar like substance when used properly.
     
  22. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    I have made up my mind and will NOT tear the engine apart. I'm gonna try to salvage and work with what I have and pray for the best. Your opinion on the pitting of the lining? Should I get some red 3M and work it very lightly?
    Thank you
     
  23. smg2

    smg2 F1 Veteran
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    Down in the bore? Leave it be.
     
  24. TommyA

    TommyA Formula Junior
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    Oct 7, 2002
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    Yes the pitting in the bore. You are saying do nothing about it... Just use the Loctite and follow your instruction on putting it back together?
     
  25. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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    Mar 14, 2005
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    H-Town, Tejas
    You said earlier the pitting was only visual and not felt by fingernail. If that is the case just button the engine back up.
     

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