heel and toe question! | FerrariChat

heel and toe question!

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by abugatti, Jun 29, 2006.

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  1. abugatti

    abugatti Rookie

    Sep 28, 2005
    48
    hello guys!
    i just have a relly stupid question, what is the purpose of heel and toe?
     
  2. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2005
    23,476
    KL, Malaysia
    Full Name:
    MC Cool Breeze

    do a search. i did a thread a couple of months ago
     
  3. Steve B

    Steve B Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
    521
    Naperville
    Full Name:
    Steven L. Biagini
    As the article describes in more detail, it is a method of braking and double-clutching at the same time.
     
  4. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    Heel and toe is a technique used in racing, specifically in cars with traditional manual gearboxes.

    It allows the driver to slow the car under braking upon entry to a corner and smoothly downshift to a lower gear. Racers use this technique to keep the car stable under braking while ensuring the car is in the correct gear for accelerating out of the corner.

    Non-racing drivers have also taken to using the technique on the road.
     
  5. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,465
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    Brian, I would have to say that once learned, both racing and non-racing drivers use the technique on the road!

    -Peter (heel-and-toeing all the way to work this morning in the t Coupe... <grin> and yes, I'm a REAL racing driver <very big grin>)
     
  6. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2005
    23,476
    KL, Malaysia
    Full Name:
    MC Cool Breeze

    true..i do it once in a while, and if u can get it right, the car sails beautifuly out of the corner...
     
  7. 88MONDIAL

    88MONDIAL Formula 3

    Apr 13, 2005
    1,052
    Racine, Wisconsin
    Full Name:
    Jim Smith
    The purpose is to match your revs to your gear speed so there is no lurching when your car's rev's drop after you put in the clutch. This also makes the car more balanced in corners which is important when going very fast.

    Double clutching is something totally different and in a road car there is no reason to really incorporate this.

    I heel and toe in most corners, otherwise there is a greater strain on the drivetrain as well.

    Hope that helps. Learn to do it, it's great!
     
  8. Buzz48317

    Buzz48317 F1 Rookie

    Dec 5, 2005
    2,862
    Shelby Twp., MI
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Ahh...the heel/Toe question thread that I have been looking for. Here is my question. Do you really use your heel and toe...because I find it easier to use the big toe on the my right foot on the brake and the side of my right foot on the accelerator....more like big toe little toe :) Have I been doing it wrong all along or do any professionals do this too?
     
  9. bretm

    bretm F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2001
    4,577
    Northern NJ
    Full Name:
    Bret
    Sole and Sole accomplishes the same thing as Heel and Toe. Just depends on the pedal setup (how far the brake and gas are apart, and how tall the pedal box is). Neither is more correct than the other, just a matter of what is comfortable given the space. Most F1 drivers of the 70s, 80s, etc. were sole and soleing, so don't think it's any less valid.

    Heel and toeing (sole and soleing) keeps the car more stable, as has been said, but more specifically, it keeps the engine torque from sending you into a pirouette and playing ice capades off the track, should you be braking into a turn (trail braking).

    You are at the limit of traction here (or close), and the engine revs fall below where they would be if the clutch was out. So, if you all of a sudden add all that engine braking (by letting the clutch out with the engine at idle) the net effect is that the rear braking bias goes through the roof and your now spinning backwards in what would be akin to trail braking oversteer (bias set too far back). Or, if you were going straight when you let the clutch out you'd just feel the rear getting squirrely.

    Heel and toeing is completely separate from double clutching. No one will argue with the need to heel and toe; the camps divide at double clutching though (which basically just preserves the gearbox).
     
  10. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,465
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    That's the correct way. You actually "roll" your foot at the ankle pivot to "blip" the throttle. The ergonomics demand that approach for most normally endowed people! <grin> I like the "sole and sole" description.

    It's a beautiful thing when you perfect it. Because I drive so many different and different kinds of cars on the street and on the track, I do it automatically, just changing the timing between slow and smooth (on the street) and fast and crisp (on the track). There are many factors that determine the rate and speed of the engine rpm rise and fall, as well as different gear spacings, that will determine proper timing. I find that the benefits of heel and toe should not solely (pun intended) be reserved for the end of heavy braking and transitioning towards corner entry, it's beneficial ALL the time!

    When I ride with people, particularly professionals, that is the first universal skill set that tells me right away whether I'm with a show-boater, a noob or the real McCoy...

    It tickles the heck out of the people that ride with me (on the street) too, because it makes everything much less dramatic, is much smoother on the gearbox, in your progress and sounds great. Of course, my wife gives me holy heck when I screw it up in her E46 M3. For some reason, I have a really tough time with that car...

    I don't know anyone that NEEDS to double clutch. When the lever doesn't fall into the gate on an upshift, I will do it, though.

    -Peter
     
  11. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    Peter--indeed, I don't disagree as I do the same, but I don't want to encourage anyone to learn the technique from the Edmunds page (it's crap).

    I think I'll have to publish the definitive heel-and-toe peice on the intarweb.

    BTW, where did you stay when you went to Mosport?
     
  12. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,465
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    Holiday Inn, Oshawa.

    I ended up not going at the last minute. I sent my fabricator and a truckie up with an Alfa GTV (driver from Colorado) and a Swift DB-2 (driver from New Jersey). The guys had an AWESOME time! The GTV won the Group 3 Feature overall in front of 40 other cars (including a bunch of P-cars <grin>) and the DB-2 was doing low 1:27's his first time on the track, winning the qualifying race and the first feature, less than three seconds off the average time of the three Formula Atlantics! They both got five sessions on Thursday test day, three sessions Friday, a practice, race and enduro (for the GTV) on Saturday and a practice and two races Sunday. The GTV burned $580 (US) in gas! NO problems for either car.

    Me? I was just glad they stayed out of the exit of T2 wall...

    -Peter (sorry for the off-topic, looking forward to your h&t treatise!)
     
  13. bretm

    bretm F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2001
    4,577
    Northern NJ
    Full Name:
    Bret
    Senna's the first person I came across to use the "sole and sole" description. Credit where credit's due.

    It's almost unbelievable now to think they were sole and soleing through thousands of shifts at Monaco. How things have changed.
     
  14. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,294
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Dave
    It can be accomplished many ways, but it's all called "heel/toe". Since my right foot turns out (genetic defect I guess), I use my heel on the brake and toe on the gas. Technique sometimes has to be varied depending on the relationship between pedals on different cars.

    Dave
     
  15. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    27s? Nice work, must be a good shoe!

    The turn 2 wall's not so bad--I've been down there.

    As for the treatise, I've already started work on it.
     
  16. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    Did anyone watch the Sears Point...oops, Infineon NASCAR race on the weekend. The old, used up Waltrip does these laps around each track they go to, I guess, and did so for Infineon.

    Anyway, he goes on about heel-and-toe, telling viewers that he 'never got it' and his technique is--as shown on TV--to stand on the brake pedal with his heel and blip the throttle with his toe!
     
  17. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
    Full Name:
    Kenneth
    I saw that too! I was amazed DW could have the success he's had without mastering the technique. I guess on the ovals it's not that important.

    Ken
     
  18. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

    Dec 12, 2005
    15,118
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Tom Spiro
    I seem to remember having read that Phill Hill said Heel & toe came from the days when the brake was where the gas pedal is today, and you had to use your heel or most of your weight on the brakes, and the gear box was non syncromesh, needing a healthy prod on the gas to get the gears to mesh... dont know if that is true or not but kinda makes sense.
     
  19. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,465
    VIR Raceway
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    Peter Krause
    Considering Phil drove an Alfa Romeo 8C early on (center accelerator, right brake), that would fit!
     
  20. J. Salmon

    J. Salmon F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 27, 2005
    4,367
    VA
    Ok, speaking of pedals, when you approach a turn and get on the brakes, do you depress the clutch immediately as you hit the brakes, or do you leave the engine in-line until you are ready to shift?
     
  21. ParadiseRoad

    ParadiseRoad Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    538
    Colorado
    If you become proficient enough at heel and toe, you don't even need the clutch.
     
  22. jw6513

    jw6513 Karting

    Nov 24, 2003
    50
    Arizona
    Full Name:
    Jim Whitney
    You leave it in line until ready to shift.

    Here is my input on the subject. You should "heel and toe" always. It is the only way to drive a sports car smoothly on the street. As mentioned earlier, it is not using the heel and toe. I've found the best way is to use the ball of your foot on the brake, and then roll your foot to blip the throttle to accomplish the downshift.

    One other input - In real race cars (such as any car that has a Hewland racing transmission) there is no need to use the clutch other than to get the car started. On upshifts you just slightly and momentarily lift the throttle and select a gear. On downshifts you brake, shift to neutral, blip the throttle, and then select a gear. This is less stressful and actually smoother (the dogs engage when the revs match up - Hewland recommends this technique). The other big advantage is that you can left foot brake (saving time with foot motion and being smoother)

    If you get used to this in a race car you won't ever want to go back to using a clutch.
     
  23. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,294
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Dave
    It is also a good idea under heavy braking to wait until you are close to turning in before downshifting which reduces the chances of overrevving by shifting too soon and is easier on the motor/drvetrain as well.

    Dave
     
  24. psmaia

    psmaia Karting

    Oct 26, 2005
    219
    greenwich, conn.
    Full Name:
    Paul Marchese

    i'm glad you pointed this out...most drivers only use heel/toe technique for downshifting, but it is also very useful under heavy braking or trail-braking...by hitting both the brake and throttle simultaneously and rocking your foot back and forth, you can greatly stabilize the car in situations like the second half of big bend or the left hander at lime rock...try it, you'll like it...;)
     

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