Heel and Toe shifting | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Heel and Toe shifting

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Ron328, Jul 28, 2004.

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  1. AHMTHSSN

    AHMTHSSN Karting

    Apr 16, 2004
    120
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    AH
    Yes.......F1 gearbox (in Sport mode)
     
  2. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,124
    USA
    Here is some of the craziest footwork you'll ever see. It's Walter Rohrl.

    You'll have to copy and paste into your browser.

    mms://a178.v096910.c9691.e.vc.akamaistream.net/7/178/9691/v0009/audi.download.akamai.com/9691/history/04_mh/07_rallye_physik_b.wmv
     
  3. superyota

    superyota Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2004
    351
    Newport Beach
    I can heel/toe my Toyota Tacoma..with practice it can be done in almost any car. It took a while to master in my old 996 but now I can do it in flip flops. Practice makes perfect. It is easier at higher speeds so try it late night when you are getting off the freeway (no one around).
     
  4. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155

    I thought I just did.


    Terry
     
  5. jordan747_400

    jordan747_400 F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 9, 2002
    6,928
    Houston, TX
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    Jordan
    INSANE!

    Its a must watch!
     
  6. Erik330

    Erik330 Formula Junior

    May 8, 2004
    711
    Ohio
    One place is when you're driving a car with weak/no synchromesh as with most older Ferrari second gear. Saves wear and tear on the tranny, also helps with smoooooootttttthhhhhhhhhhneeeessssssssss, the key element to driving very fast consistently. Keeps you from unloading undesirable corners of the car when slowing and setting up for a corner.
     
  7. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    That instructor is so full of it. On your first track day, you should not be concerned with time at all. Let me guess--he was a "club" instructor...

    Ron, if you need any tips for your next track day, feel free to PM me. Don't listen to these nutcases.
     
  8. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    3,179
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    Keith Verges
    It really is a race or track-only technique - if you don't do either, no real need to learn it.

    I can assure you that you cannot quickly race "balls to the wall" without this skill. I know no fast racers who do not do this. Period. Downshifts will upset the car under threshold braking unless you match revs.

    I practice it all the time on the street, but my excuse is that I race. That said, a heel & toe downshift in gentle street driving seems harder to me, as the pedals in my car are set up to have the brake be about even with the gas under heavy braking, so that I can easily roll my foot to blip the throttle. If I brake gently, it is hard to reach the gas pedal easily.

    You want to complete your downshifts before you turn in.
     
  9. arkferrari

    arkferrari Karting
    BANNED

    Feb 9, 2004
    211
    Hot Springs, AR
    Full Name:
    B.F. Mitchell
    Let me get this straight...you put your left foot in, then your right foot out, do the HOKEY POKEY.....then what?
     
  10. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner Social Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2000
    64,392
    Southlake, TX
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    Rob Lay
    Submit it then.
     
  11. Kram

    Kram Formula Junior

    Jul 3, 2004
    867
    Park bench, Canada
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Watch the movie Grand Prix - there is some great shots of heel and toe action. Interestingly enough most early racing cars were built with the accelerator pedal in the middle to make double de clutching easier.
    At the end of the day while double de clutching is great, getting the car to stop is far more important, so focus on the toe and just kick the loud pedal with your heel, at least that’s my advice.
     
  12. DGS

    DGS Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
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    I'm going to have to quibble about this being a "track only" or "not needed" technique.

    It's difficult to master, and you can get away with not using it, if you're driving slowly on the street, and don't mind the wear on your tires, suspension, drivetrain, and seat-of-pants.

    If you don't match revs when down shifting, your car will "lurch" as your momentum along the road tries, through the drivetrain, to instantaneously raise the engine rpms to match the driveline speed. The tires are trying to speed up the engine as the engine is trying to slow the tires, causing a torque spike across the drivetrain. The transient load on the driven tires will upset the car's balance, causing a shift in the suspension, as well.

    As indicated, on the race track, at the limits of the friction circle, this will cause the car to spin off (leading to "heal and tow" ;) ).

    But even on the street, it adds stress to the hardware: stress on the gearbox, on the clutch, wear on the tires, on the springs, etc.

    Like manual shifting, "heel and toe" isn't a particularly easy technique to learn, at first, but once you get the hang of it, it will become second nature.

    Heel and toe refers to doing two things at once, and it's easier to learn if you practice one at a time.

    Braking is something every driver has learned -- more or less. Most of us with pre-abs cars have learned to modulate the brakes, and most drivers know better than to just mash the combat boot down on the brake pedal. This means placing the foot on the brake pedal in a way that lets you have some "feel" to pedal pressure. Heel and toe doesn't change this, except to position the foot toward the right side of the brake pedal, so you have some of your foot overhanging the throttle pedal. This can be practiced at first in the garage in a stationary car, and then every time you apply the brakes.

    The second part is simply smooth shifts. When you shift (up or down) you should try to match engine rpms to where they will be when the clutch is out before releasing the clutch. This takes practice -- and can be practiced on every shift -- even if you aren't braking at the same time. If you feel a "lurch" or "jump" when you let the clutch out, you didn't get it quite right. When you get it right, you won't feel a thing though the drivetrain/suspension. (sweet) With practice, you can do it quickly and smoothly, but the key is to get it smooth, and quick will come over time.

    Similarly, when you start to combine the two, do it slowly and get it right. Don't worry about doing it quickly. Practice on slow corners (where you have time to react if you get it all wrong) and don't rush it. There's nothing wrong with slow shifts if you're not in a hurry. With practice, it will become second nature, and you'll find your speed improving with repetition.

    It's a little like learning to drive a stick all over again. If you managed that, you can manage h/t. Just remember; it's about smooth. Quick will take care of itself.

    The biggest hurdle to learning heel/toe shifts is that (some) manufacturers don't arrange their pedals to accomodate it. How many times have you heard people complain how close together Ferrari pedals are? Cars designed to be comfortable for some market analyist's idea of "the average schmoe" are frequently difficult to heel/toe, because it's difficult to get one foot on the brake and throttle at the same time. (Remember, it's when the brake pedal is depressed that you need to touch the throttle.)
     
  13. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    Han Solo
    #38 Spasso, Jul 29, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Rob at Ultimate Pedals made up this modified gas pedal for me.

    My feet are so big that I have to wear driving shoes just to get my foot past the brake pedal to touch the gas. That being the case I find it easier to leave my heel on the gas pedal and brake with the top of my foot.

    Note; the brake and clutch pedals are the mini pedals to boot.

    Now all I need to do is put a spacer under the steering wheel so the back of my knee doesn't hit it.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. Billy10mm

    Billy10mm Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    664
    Westchester
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    Billy Ng
    While it's good footwork, it's a horrible video, his feet are moving at about 1/3rd the pace they show in that vid, they sped it up for effect. What you're looking at there is a combination of left-foot-braking (when he's on the gas with the right foot and brake with the left), clutch rotations (where his right foot is on the brake and his left is working the clutch), and some heel & toeing.

    As a general vehicular enthusiast with track time in cars and on bikes ... working the pedals of a car is a piece of cake.

    On the bike, you're working the throttle with your right thumb and index finger on your right hand, front brake with middle and ring finger of same hand. Clutch with left hand, rear brake with right foot (YOU balance front/rear braking bias, not a proportioning valve), and gear selection with left foot.

    On top of that, you're using your knees to keep your body from sliding forward under braking ... trying to keep your weight as rearward and as low as possible to prevent the bike from flipping right over its front wheel. Then, under acceleration, you're pushing yourself off the seat up onto the tank practically, also keeping yourself as low as possible to prevent the front wheel from coming off the ground. On top of this, you're handing off the bike as far as physically possible to one side or the other in an attempt to bring the bike's total center of gravity lower to the ground while leaned over to increase your available lean-angle for a given speed ... using not only the handlebars, but your body weight and your outside knee to throw the bike into the turn.

    Riding a motorcycle fast is probably the most physically demanding motorsport around (yes yes, I know that F1 sees incredible G-forces and all, but they sure don't need to manipulate their bodies as much).

    Bill in Brooklyn
     
  15. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    Southlake, TX
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    Heel and Toe shifting on the street is only good for learning the technique before you get to the track. That's how I learned to master it. Trying to learn at the track is difficult with everything else going on.

    No reason to use it on the streets. The best thing for the car is to just put it in neutral and brake. Brakes are cheaper than drivelines! I do admit it's fun now and then while sounding cool.
     
  16. DGS

    DGS Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    May 27, 2003
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    But at some point, you're going to want to accelerate away from the corner.

    You might not need to downshift and brake at the same time, but getting the revs matched for shifts preserves the drivetrain.

    Using the driveline to brake is based on not matching revs, so the engine will drag the driven wheels. That's what a h/t shift is trying to avoid. So if you h/t shift properly, you're putting less stress on the drivetrain.

    Learning h/t is easier, if you're just combining two things you already do until they're second nature. And at that point, it's more a matter of having no reason not to h/t. (Unless the pedal arrangement is the reason.)

    The only real "down side" to h/t technique is that it really makes an automatic transmission feel klunky. ;)
     
  17. CVest308QV

    CVest308QV Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    50
    Glastonbury, CT
    Full Name:
    Charlie Vest
    Just to throw in my $0.02 worth...

    1) Unless you have an F1 transmission, heal/toe or double clutching is an absolute must as a skill to learn if you are driving on the track, whether racing or doing high speed lapping at a driver's ed. event. Without this, downshifts at high revs will upset the balance of the car, let alone take their toll on your engine and transmission.

    2) The track is not the first place to apply heal/toe techniques... practice first during your normal street driving.

    3) A great resource to learn more about this is the Skip Barber book "Going Faster." An entire chapter is dedicated to the hows and whys of heal/toe, or as they call it "double de-clutching," downshifts.

    4) The end result is what's important... what's comfortable and works for you takes a while to figure out.

    5) This is a great technique for street driving... even with a synchromesh gearbox. Your shifts will be much smoother and you'll put much less stress on your gearbox. Your passengers will appreciate it too when you don't lurch forward on downshifts at high revs. I view this as an excellent skill to have in your toolbox for street driving (operating your car smoothly at higher revs in its power band = better car control and safety). And besides, I think the blipping sounds much cooler than the whirring of your synchros.

    6) Once you've mastered the techniques, heal/toeing becomes second nature -- exactly what you want for track driving. And whether you're driving on the street or the track, it's also like wearing seatbelts... you'll find it difficult, even uncomfortable, not to heal/toe all the time.

    Charlie
     
  18. Erik330

    Erik330 Formula Junior

    May 8, 2004
    711
    Ohio
    Really great looking pedals.
     
  19. 348paul

    348paul Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2002
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    Paul Hill
    #44 348paul, Jul 29, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

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