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Help, 348 Italian rip off !

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by sf348s, May 2, 2005.

  1. sf348s

    sf348s Karting

    Oct 8, 2003
    168
    Lazio, Italy & UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Holden
    I just drove my 348 to Italy last Saturday from the uk, I had the fluid leak problem from the clutch but thought id go for it anyway. However after 900 miles and 14 hours i was 250 miles from my destination and the alternator failed. So the car was towed to the dealer in north Italy who has asked for £430 for an alternator, he also said the fluid leak was down to a failed clutch release bearing but i only had a new clutch/bearing/seals 7 months ago, could this be right, also can anyone explain what else it could be as he also said i needed a flange something changing for £500, My Italian isn't so good so i can't think what this could be.Total bill is around £1500. I have to collect the car tomorrow and pay, also drive it another 250 miles then home to uk.can anyone arm me with info before i get fleeced!
     
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  3. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,063
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    The Bad Guy
    Why did he have to put in a new one? You could have had the old one rebuild for about 250 quid. As for your clutch going out. It sounds like the triple seals are bad. Now the "flange" you are talking about, was he refering to the axle flange? If so I would be questioning why. The reason is if the axle flange is bad you would also have needed new axle bearings also. One last thing, get ALL of your old parts and take them with you, even the old seals. This does two things. 1) You don't give them free parts that they will rebuild for a few dollars and sell to the next guy. 2) If they don't have the old parts then you can bet the part was never taken out and replaced. Just because it is a dealer doesn't mean a mechanic won't try to burn you.
     
  4. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    15,405
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    This depends on the slave/bearing assembly that is in the car. The one made out of alumminum do have a problem with splitting apart and leaking. The issue only gets worse until you completey loose your clutch pedal. The cast steel units can be repaired by just replacing the seals inside.

    Check to make sure you car does not have the alummiun slave if it does, this could be the reason the price is higher then expected.
     
  5. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    Jun 9, 2004
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    Vern
    This comment is coming from my knowledge so I'm repeating only to be helpful. From my understanding 348 and 355 original thrust bearings were changed to use the 360 unit the unit for the 348 and 355 are not available. When you need to change the bearing you also have to change the shaft that it fits on and also the coresponding seals which are bluish in color vs black. The cost of this kit is around $1200 part no. 177784 if the shaft has been replaced already you can purchase the bearing and seals only. Maybe Rifledriver/Brian could shed some light on the subject.
     
  6. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,029
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    Vern may be on to something. There are about 4 iterations of the 348 clutch and t/o bearing assembly. The flange is most likely the annular t/o bearing housing with integral shaft. Even though you had this stuff replaced 7mos ago perhaps someone used old stock old style to rebuild your unit and the only currently available T/O bearing is the aluminium unit with the blue seals, but that takes the latest flange shaft. As to the alternator you can rebuild them for about $100USD. I think I can rebuild it in the USA and still FEDEX it and it would be cheaper than what you are paying. I haev seen and heard of only one aluminium cases T/O bearing rupture. I don't know why. There seems to not that much pressure on them. I do not think there is anything else avaialable unless someone can source the seals for the old cast metal t/o bearing that uses the old smaller diameter flange shaft
     
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  8. PassionIsFerrari

    PassionIsFerrari Formula 3

    Aug 15, 2004
    2,454
    I sourced the seals for my cast iron T/O bearing/Slave cyclinder unit. Some of the seals I aquired through TRutlands and other ones I got from FOA while I was there. The seals are tough to differentiate though. The mechanic at FOA and had to do a trial and error type deal to figure out the correct seals. I posted on this a while back and gave part numbers in my post in case anyone was interested in rebuilding there cast iron units.
     
  9. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    IMHO I'm not sure I would use the old seal/bearing even if I could find it. My 348 had a problem with leaking brake/clutch fluid because of the seals,apparently a poor design. I was told that this was not uncommom and the fix for it was to use the new kit from the 360. The kit cost is for the bearing, shaft and seals. If you have to replace the bearing again in the future you can buy it seperately, about half the cost of kit. just my 2 cents.
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,029
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    Tmobile guy,

    Do you know the part numbers of the old cast unit?

    Thanks!
     
  11. PassionIsFerrari

    PassionIsFerrari Formula 3

    Aug 15, 2004
    2,454
    I cant find the thread so Im going to try to answer this on memory...There are 2 different cast iron units which we will call TO1 and TO2 and an updated alloy unit that was used on the F355 which we will call TO3. TO3 is very easy to distinguish from the other two because it has the blue seals on the inside of the slave unit. TO1 and TO2 both have black seals underneath the slave unit. I had a TO2 and my car was a 91'. Some of the seals that I purchased from TRutlands worked and some did not. The CLUTCH SHAFT BEARING SEAL (PART #131651) did not fit my TO2, it was for the TO1. The TRIPLE SHAFT SEALS (PART #137249) can be used on any of the three TOs. The SMALL CLUTCH SLAVE SEAL (PART #139438) was also for TO1 (I do not remember the part number for TO2. The difference I remember about the SMALL CLUTCH SLAVE SEAL between TO1 and TO2 was one had a small blue strip and one did not. I also remember that one was a .5 mm wider then the other. I do remember that the SMALL CLUTCH SLAVE SEAL for TO2 was the larger width of the two and I believe it was 7mm wide. I have other part numbers on the invoice but I do not know if they were for TO1 and TO2 but the read...

    O-RING SEAL, 348 CLUTCH 143178
    O-RING 106(CLT.SLV.REQ 2) 121813
    SEAL, CL/SLAVE, 348 (LARGE) 139436
    SEAL, CLUTCH SLAVE, 348 (SM) 139438
    O-RING SEAL 2106 104984
    TRIPLE SEALS 137249
    SEAL, CLUTCH SHAFT BRG. 348 131651

    Hope this helps at all, I wish I could find that post that had the info on my T/O bearing and the numbers associated with TO2.
     
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  13. sf348s

    sf348s Karting

    Oct 8, 2003
    168
    Lazio, Italy & UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Holden
    Thanks for your advice, I picked up the car, i have the old bearing and alternator, but the slippery sod put the parts in the car while i was paying the bill and when i got home and checked he didn't put the shaft in although he had shown me it and demonstrated that the bearing did not sit very tightly on the shaft/flange. He said the old alternator could not be repaired as it was a Japanese type not Italian, I asked if this was original he said it was? I drove it home (300 miles) checked underneath, all was ok, moved the car next day, ok, moved it following day, fluid leaking again, few spots, used it at the weekend, no drips?? Could this be as the parts heat i'm getting a better seal? I will check the part numbers on my invoice as to if they are old stock parts or not. Also the guy said i have white marks on my cam belt where the small pad near the top of the heads, looks like a guide? is touching the belt and recomended i remove the motor to adjust it or it will wear the belt, this also was changed/done last july! Is this right? I expect to pay a price for F car ownership but not to have work done and re-done!
     
  14. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K
    Steve, you can get the alternator fixed in the UK (midlands) for £100.

    I did with mine. Let me know if you need their address.

    They are originally fiited (Nippondenso)

    John
     
  15. sf348s

    sf348s Karting

    Oct 8, 2003
    168
    Lazio, Italy & UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Holden
    Thanks John,
    If you do have the address i'll send it, It'll keep for a back up, my brother's comming to visit me over here (Italy) next month so if it's ready he can bring it back for me...That Italian workshop is going to get a few words !!!
     
  16. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    259
    Wirral, UK
    Full Name:
    John K

    Steve,

    Here you go:-

    www.nippon-dis.co.uk.
    Located in Sutton Coldfield - Midlands.

    Apparently these can fail if they get oil leaks dripping on them (what - a leaking Ferrari - never.).

    Cheers

    John
     
  17. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,063
    The Brickyard
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    The Bad Guy
    What an IDIOT! The guy you talked to is full of crap. There is NO such thing as an ITALIAN alternator for the 348. Neither of the 348 alternators are Italian. The early 348s had AC DELCO alternators. Those are General Motors parts. The Japanese alternator is a Nippodenso, who is a HUGE supplier for the Japanese cars. The Nippodenso alternator was the UPGRADED unit, that Ferrari went to because they were having problems with the Ac Delco unit. The Nippodenso CAN be rebuilt using a Nippodenso kit. What a freeking LIAR! I am so glad that you listened and got your old parts. This guy would have rebuilt YOUR alternator and made an quick quid off of it. Just like I told you, just because it is at a dealer Does Not mean that you won't find a crooked machanic.
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,029
    socal


    GET A NEW MECHANIC!!!! How many Japanese rebulit 348 alternaotrs or starters would you like me to send you and I am not a mechanic? Forget the white marks on the cam belt they get that way from the guides. The guides are fixed but prevent over travel of the belt. They will not rub your belt and break it unless the last guy screwed it up. I can produce pictures of my last belt and my guides are perfect and my white of the belt is rubbed partly away and I race my car. If anyone could break a belt it would be me. This is not problem.
     
  19. sf348s

    sf348s Karting

    Oct 8, 2003
    168
    Lazio, Italy & UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Holden
    Thanks again fellas, the guy had me by the B****cks i'm afraid 1,000 miles from home and i don't speak enough Italian! Anyway, i have my bill here and the part numbers for the bearing is 155226 and flange-144984, so next queston in the saga are the parts compatable ( i refer to the point made about 348 & 355 parts no longer in production so use of 360 parts instead).
     
  20. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    Jun 9, 2004
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    From what I have found the 348/355 parts aren't available from Ferrari they have been replaced by the 360 parts.The parts: bearing, shaft and seals are not interchangeable totally different design and different part nos. You might find a parts source that has NOS for the 348/355. Obviously he found them somewhere. My thought is why do that, they are supposeably an inferior design. Just my thoughts. Another question comes to mind as I reread your post, why did he have to change your flange that should only need to be changed if you are updating to 360 bearing and seals?
     
  21. sf348s

    sf348s Karting

    Oct 8, 2003
    168
    Lazio, Italy & UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Holden
    This is what I'm trying to determine with the part nos Vern, this is the quick version of a long story, last July had clutch replaced and all relevent sundries including bearing, prior to this i have never had any problem, then 3 months later notice fluid leak, spend £500 in feb this year having it checked and more new seals, dealer said it leaked as the car stood 3 months then i used it and 'popped' the seal? Did a track day , leak returned, drove it to Italy 2 weeks ago(where i am now with car) dealer said the bearing was the problem, changed it, still leaked and said shaft/flange was the problem,changed it,another big bill, still leaking,I could do with the old and new part nos to find out if he's mixed and matched new and old parts.I've so far spent 2 grand and still no better off and getting fed up with being blatantly ripped off !!
     
  22. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    Jun 9, 2004
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    Vern
    Crap! This is turning into a damn nightmare for you isn't it. The seals are somewhat delicate when being installed in the T.O. bearing and when installing the bearing on the shaft, not difficult but care should be taken. Maybe this is the problem you are experiancing they aren't being careful when installing.The 348's old seals are known for leaking through these seals, mine did. I replaced it with the 360 parts, bearing with blue seals and the accompaning shaft.I have also done my 355C. Without seeing your car and the parts being used I can't tell what the hell is in there and how they are installing the new parts or if they even are. From your previous posts I'm not sure this guy is being honest with you or the previous mechanic either. Your July clutch change should have used the new parts I would have thought. As I said before I don't think Ferrari has produced the old parts for awhile. Maybe FatBillyBob can answer that. Did they have NOS parts hanging around when they did your clutch? we'll probably never know.I am assuming so if the are leaking already. My only sugestion, and it will be expensive, is to install the 360 bearing and shaft around US$1200 for parts. I have installed these myself care needs to be taken when you work with seals but it can be done fairly easily yourself. At least you know whats being done.
     
  23. sf348s

    sf348s Karting

    Oct 8, 2003
    168
    Lazio, Italy & UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Holden
    Thanks for your time Vern, I'll have to wait until monday to call the Italian dealer to see what he has to say for himself, also to call the UK garage that did the original work and get their comments, they had £5,100 off me in all with a belt change so they owe me an explanation at least.In the mean time i'll see if i can find those part numbers. The parts seem a bit cheaper in the US, over here the shaft and bearing come out around $1,500.I think your right about D.I.Y,i can't keep spending out on the same stuff at least if i break it i only have myself to blame!
     
  24. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,029
    socal
    Well, at one time I had the latest upgrade but to be honest FNA has confused the hell out of me on this issue. Lets see I know of 4-5 upgrades and single and dual disc set-ups. Is that 8-10 permutations? If I need to order this stuff I just hope and pray. In reality the FNA system is so hooky, if it ever gives me trouble I'll just redesign it with a decent Tilton bearing assembly and mini-multidisc clutch setup and extra light flywheel. I'm a road racer anyway.
     
  25. sf348s

    sf348s Karting

    Oct 8, 2003
    168
    Lazio, Italy & UK
    Full Name:
    Steve Holden
    Well if your confused ,I'm gonna be in a real mess!! One more thing, how long can i use the car in it's leaky state before i do more damage? Topping up with dot 4 seems like an easier option!
     
  26. Llenroc

    Llenroc F1 Rookie
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    Jun 9, 2004
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    I'm looking at a reciept from GT Car Parts in Phoenix who I have used for parts for 15 years. List is as follows:360/update T.O. bearing Kit Part no. 177784 replaces No. 165932. This is for the bearing, shaft and the 4 seals. If need the bearing only that no. is 201024 this must be a fairly new no. because I have not seen 200... nos. until now. The seals are nos. 176561,...562,...563 and 172499. I also don't think the England dealer was being totally up front on the seal failing that soon, your few months of down time, I mean its possible but doubtful On your question about driving with it leaking it would depend on how bad the leak I guess. I drove my 348 two seasons before I changed mine it never leaked very much tho, a few drops after every third or fourth drive. It took me about two hours on my 355C to change the clutch and t.o. but I don't have to remove a muffler so maybe another couple hours for that. It really is fairly staight forward. Hell you could have flown me over there and back and I would have done it for free for what you have into now and it would work fine and not leak.Sorry didn't mean that in a bad way just trying make light of a bad situation. Keep in touch I'm curious to know what they come up with for answers for you.
     
  27. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    20,029
    socal
    Yeah, I agree with Vern. Fly us both over we need a vaction! We'll get that sucker running right. Anyway, it is o.k. to top off. You won't runin anytying dispite mechanics who say you will permenantly soil the clutch plates. You can clean them off with brake cleaner or tricholoetheleyne if you soil them. Don't let them BS you. Talk to us first. You eventually need to do a proper diagnosis. If I was there I would drive your car hard with lots of clutching like on a tight road course. Then I would take the pumpkin bellhouse off and inspect. I would look for leaking at the shaft/T/o bearing interface, along the bearing it self (these can fail) , the flange mating surface to the gearbox, the peaned over holes on top of the flange, the triple seals of the input shaft, the grease in your flywheel, leakage from a crack in the gearbox case. All of these areas look the same when the clutch dust gets to them. So careful diagnosis is the key. Are you absolutely sure that fluid is dropping out the grate at the bottom of the bell house right in front of the last rear crossmember? Also, check to make sure that the hose going into the top of the gearbox just under the airbox is not leaking. Do you have a bead of brake fluid coming off the left bleed screw on the left side of the bellhouse? Finally, you have spend a zillion euros and the car is not fixed. You know nothing about this car or car mechanicals. Do you think the car would be any worse if you tried it? Nextime go for it. We at Fchat talk you through anything if you can type and have a digital camera. Best of all we are free!
     
  28. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,063
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    The Bad Guy
    As for the flange, give Phil a call at QV London. Their number is 1344622011.
     

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