HELP - 88 Mondial 3.2 will not start when hot! | FerrariChat

HELP - 88 Mondial 3.2 will not start when hot!

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by buck74, Jul 6, 2018.

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  1. buck74

    buck74 Rookie

    Dec 14, 2016
    30
    Eau Claire, WI
    Full Name:
    Frank Buckles
    I have had this problem where my 1988 Mondial will not start when hot. Starts great when cold, runs great all the time, no difference when it is hot. I did some research on here about possible causes. Recently my fuel pump started to leak a little. So I had the fuel pump replaced and the check valve in the tank also. I thought this might take care of the hard starting when hot problem, but it is still the same. Some of the things I have seen on here do not make sense, like electrical issues because it only happens when the car is hot, no other time. Also it runs fine when hot, it just will not start. Please help. Buck
     
  2. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
    561
    UK Buckinghamshire
    Full Name:
    Stu R
    Buck, lots will no doubt chime in and it is a while since I dealt with a v similar issue on my 3QV. I found a number of electrical issues that ‘helped’ prepare the ground work which had been niggling for a while, these included: rebuilding alternator, adjusting belt tension; cleaning main grounds on the chassis; rebuilding battery cut off. Whilst not directly the reason, it was obvious that the overall system was in less than great shape.

    I then fitted a relay (probably not the right term, but I did post it up here many years ago...) to the starter motor. I also had first replaced the relay on the fuse board - I found some improvement, but to be honest the fuse board replacement didn’t solve the issue. And at that time replacing and upgrading the fuse board wasn’t an option. I found that the relay on the starter motor did the trick. Later on I ended up fitting a starter button (longer story), and along with the latter that was the end of hot running issues.

    No doubt someone more professional and with a better memory will be along shortly - if I can find pics I’ll repost.


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  3. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
    561
    UK Buckinghamshire
    Full Name:
    Stu R
    This is what it looked like when I’d fitted it, I kept it up by the other engine electrics, not too obvious... The starter just provided a direct feed, so you still need to use the key - I like to think it inspired F to adopt the principle (if not the wiring) for more recent V8s...

    Image Unavailable, Please Login


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  4. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Does it ...

    1. The starter not even spin when the engine is hot?
    or
    2. Starter spins, engine cranks over at a good clip but the engine will not ignite and car does not run?
     
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  5. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
    561
    UK Buckinghamshire
    Full Name:
    Stu R
    Good point! Mine didn’t move... or was it too weak to engage.... 10 years ago.... basically heat was reducing current (or whatever the technical word is... draw, amps... I knew this stuff before the kids started teething....)


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  6. buck74

    buck74 Rookie

    Dec 14, 2016
    30
    Eau Claire, WI
    Full Name:
    Frank Buckles
    The starter works great all of the time. Engine turns over fine. Just will not start when hot. When it does start it runs fine. I should have mentioned this earlier. Thank you for the replies everyone.
     
  7. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
    561
    UK Buckinghamshire
    Full Name:
    Stu R
    So what’s not happening when hot? With me I’m almost sort of possibly sure that resistance was causing a current drop to the starter motor. Can’t recall if the start span but didn’t engage or did neither. Think it was an easy check - eventually had the starter off the car, and I think even tested it that way - just had to make sure I got it off before everything cooled down!!! Can’t remember what the drop was, but it was clear from the meter. Fuel pump relay, and fuel supply never an issue for me. I Assume poor electrics (board) affects 1,2 or more relays/circuits.

    PS - it’s not the big blue wire on the pic!! That’s part of the silicone hoses I used when I rebuilt the water pump and all the pipe work,etc.


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  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    Then you need to do a fuel pressure test to see what the system pressure and control pressure are when the engine is hot. That will give you a good clue and rule out several things.
     
  9. buck74

    buck74 Rookie

    Dec 14, 2016
    30
    Eau Claire, WI
    Full Name:
    Frank Buckles
    I will try this. I forgot to mention it is definite not flooding either. Spark plugs are firing. It seems like it is starved for fuel, or vapor locked. I have a fuel pressure gauge but the fitting is not correct for the Ferrari, so I need to try and find one. Like I said starter motor runs fine all of the time, turns engine over with no problem, just will not start when hot.
     
  10. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
    561
    UK Buckinghamshire
    Full Name:
    Stu R
    Good luck then Buck, at least its ‘just’ fuel. Your sure pump is drawing sufficient power when hot - ie it’s not the relay supplying?


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  11. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    You need a CIS fuel pressure test kit to do this. it connects to the WUR line and has a switch that controls direction.
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    +1 (if the starter turns the engine over well and you have spark) -- but one preliminary easy thing to do (if a US model) is to remove the return line from the Accumulator going back to the tank -- if fuel comes out when the FP is running = bad Accumulator. (On a euro version, there is no return line so that would just pee fuel on the ground - so if no leak = Accumulator OK).
    Three things can cause low/no fuel pressure at hot shut-off on a K-Jet:
    1. Bad FP Check Valve (which you say is new)
    2. Bad Accumulator (which you can rule in or out with fuel leaking, or not, at the return nipple), or
    3. Bad O-ring in pressure regulator section of the fuel distributor {this is where you'd have to go if you fail the pressure test, but 1 and 2 are OK.).

    Good hunting!
     
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  13. AUDIO RESEARCH

    AUDIO RESEARCH Formula Junior

    Feb 11, 2009
    350
    PHILIPPINES
    Full Name:
    LUIGI RAYMUND LIRA
    Hi ,

    I’ve experienced this problem 3 times already on 3 different marques ( Porsche 930 , Mercedes Benz 230 GE , & the Mondial ) , very common to cars using the BOSCH K Jetronic FI System . And every time it was the Fuel Accumulator . In my Mondial I bought a BOSCH replacement unit ( same as the one in the Mercedes 450SL , 280CE). Once replaced your no start problem will be over .

    Hope this helps ,

    Luigi
     
  14. StuR

    StuR Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2005
    561
    UK Buckinghamshire
    Full Name:
    Stu R
    Luigi,

    Out of interest, what is it about the accumulator and the engine being hot that causes the problems? (I will also google, but thought I’d ask)

    Thanks.


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  15. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
    Duluth, MN
    Full Name:
    The Meister
    hot restart issue is fairly common on 3 series cars. If you have not already done so widen your search/go to google and search "308 hot start issue" "308 hot start problem" much better search power there and includes many of the f-chat threads on the subject.
     
  16. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Fuel mixture could just be getting too rich for some reason. Get the motor hot, then try backing off (counterclockwise) the mixture screw 1/4 turn. See if she starts then. Make sure to note your adjustments on paper. Also try holding the gas pedal all the way to the floor when hot starting.
     
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  17. AUDIO RESEARCH

    AUDIO RESEARCH Formula Junior

    Feb 11, 2009
    350
    PHILIPPINES
    Full Name:
    LUIGI RAYMUND LIRA
    Hi ,

    Not an expert but as far as I know the fuel accumulator is responsible for maintaining the pressure w/ in normal in a K Jetronic system specially in hot conditions . If the pressure drops you will have a hard time starting because vapor lock will occur. There was also a time that my Porsche 930 also experience hard starting when cold & hot conditions but once the mechanic replaced the fuel accumulator problem solved .

    Luigi
     
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  18. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2004
    2,371
    Argent/Brasil
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    Guido
    Did you try to press the gaspedal all the way down and leaving it there while starting ?
    Also you can leave the gascap a bit loose so air is passing into the gastank....this will help gas getting better to the fuelpump.

    Did you check the fuel accumulator that the membrame is'nt shot.

    guido
     
  19. Pero

    Pero Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 22, 2011
    820
    Sweden
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    Peter R
    +1 for the fuel accumulator. Start with the easy to check.
    Peter
     
  20. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    When my accumulator failed, the symptoms it caused were that the car would start and run for only a few seconds, and then die right away. Also you could tell that the system pressure was greatly reduced, by pressing down on the air vane with the ignition key set to run.

    Try disconnecting the cold start injector before hot starting.
     
  21. AUDIO RESEARCH

    AUDIO RESEARCH Formula Junior

    Feb 11, 2009
    350
    PHILIPPINES
    Full Name:
    LUIGI RAYMUND LIRA
    This was the exact symptom my mechanic noted w/ a failed accumulator .
     
  22. buck74

    buck74 Rookie

    Dec 14, 2016
    30
    Eau Claire, WI
    Full Name:
    Frank Buckles
    I replaced the check valve, fuel pump, and accumulator. It is only slightly better with the hat starting. GRRRRRR, these things can be frustrating to say the least.
     
  23. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    Try the tests that I posted.
     
  24. AUDIO RESEARCH

    AUDIO RESEARCH Formula Junior

    Feb 11, 2009
    350
    PHILIPPINES
    Full Name:
    LUIGI RAYMUND LIRA
    #24 AUDIO RESEARCH, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
    This would be the next step to do , now that you have replaced the fuel accumulator and the check valve at the end of your new fuel pump.
    One thing to check as well is the thermo time switch . It prevents the cold start valve from supplying extra fuel when the engine is hot . If it’s malfunctioning, the CSV ( cold start valve ) will spray extra fuel and cause flooding when the engine is hot . The CSV should only spray extra fuel when the engine is started when cold .

    Best regard ,

    Luigi
     
  25. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    The accumulator maintains fuel pressure in the piping when running or stopped. When the engine is shut of the heat in the engine bay heats up the fuel in the pipes and the fuel turns to vapor if the accumulator has failed. If it works then it maintains the pressure and stops the vapor forming. Also check the run of the fuel lines subject to exhaust heat on the front of the engine. Pipe insulation might help
     
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