Help! Gear reduction starter doesn't fit | FerrariChat

Help! Gear reduction starter doesn't fit

Discussion in '308/328' started by RichardAguinsky, Jul 30, 2015.

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  1. RichardAguinsky

    RichardAguinsky Formula Junior

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    #1 RichardAguinsky, Jul 30, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I rebuilt the original starter a few years ago and it started acting up again when hot. So I decided to follow the forum and buy the gear reduction one from the eBay seller.

    The Ferrari starter is a motor in line with the gear reduction. The solenoid is on the bottom. There is nothing on top.

    The new starter has the solenoid and gears in line. The motor is on the top of the solenoid.

    The problem is that this new starter does not fit in my engine. There is a protrusion on the block on top of the starter, I suspect where the starter heat shield should be. This protrusion touches the motor of the starter preventing it to spin in the cavity to align the bolts with the threaded plate on the starter.

    See pictures below. I am pointing at the protrusion on the block and where it touches the motor.

    The starter fits in the cavity, but it aligns approx 2 mm off center from the holes for the bolts.

    Did any other Fchatter run into this? Did I get the wrong starter? Or do I have an odd ball Ferrari block?

    I'd like to fit the new, modern starter.

    Thanks,


    Richard


    1984 Mondial QV US model (same as 1984 308 QV)
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  2. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

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    #2 maurice70, Jul 30, 2015

    No personal experience but I think I remember this happening to someone else and they ground off the extra bit..
     
  3. Jdubbya

    Jdubbya The $10 Trillion Man
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    #3 Jdubbya, Jul 30, 2015
    It looks bigger than the Gustafson one from these guys... 308

    Maybe not, but I bought from them and it slid in just fine with no clearance issues at all.
     
  4. RichardAguinsky

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    #4 RichardAguinsky, Jul 30, 2015
    Looks like the one I got

    My engine block has a protrusion. A tab with threads for the starter heat shield.
    I wonder if my block is different. If a previous owner changed it or if it came from Ferrari like that



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  5. smg2

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    #5 smg2, Jul 30, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The boss is actually a blind boss for the coolant passage, if it was tapped you could put a drain valve in there.

    Here's a pic of the mini starters we use assembled in that location on a QV. Your starter has not been machined correctly on the adapter flange to fit, it also looks to be missing the full set of holes to rotate the housing as well.
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  6. GordonC

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    #6 GordonC, Jul 30, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Richard,
    I'd echo SMG's comments - your starter does not look to be the correct replacement gear reduction starter... the number of mounting holes to allow for adjustment on the bell housing mounting plate are half the number that were on my Gustafson starter... and the motor of your starter looks to be oriented 180* wrong on the mounting plate! Maybe you can rotate it...

    Can you post the link to your eBay seller or item? Your post is too vague, you need to specify which eBay seller or which item you purchased.

    Here are photos of my Gustafson gear reduction starter next to the OEM Bosch starter - notice the orientation of the motor relative to the mounting plate, versus the OEM solenoid versus mounting plate. My starter seems to be the same posted by SMG above.
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  7. RichardAguinsky

    RichardAguinsky Formula Junior

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    #7 RichardAguinsky, Jul 30, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The eBay seller is RareElectrical

    New IMI Starter Motor 1982 1983 1984 1985 Ferrari 308 GTB GTS Quattrovalvole | eBay

    I thought that this was the Gustafson starter, as it looks similar. I even contacted the seller, RareElectrical before buying and they said that no modifications are needed.

    By looking at the pictures you folks posted, it does appears that this starter would never fit our engines. I see that the Gustafson solved the issue of the battery lug orientation by moving the contacts to the rear.

    Can I grind off part of the boss? Or will I create a leak? I would like to give this starter one last try before sending it back and getting the Gustafson. I pretty much had it with the Ferrari starter.
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  8. GordonC

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    #8 GordonC, Jul 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
    I think that will still fit - it's just that the flange that bolts to the bell housing is mounted 180 degrees out! There's two bolts holding the flange to the starter motor - unbolt them, rotate the flange, bolt the flange back on.

    Based on the comparison of those latest photos to my photos, I think flange adjustment that should rotate the starter motor to the proper position.

    This is the Gustafson unit on eBay: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-FERRARI-V8-308-328-Mondial-Gear-Reduction-STARTER-/230620025011?hash=item35b20650b3&vxp=mtr
     
  9. RichardAguinsky

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    #9 RichardAguinsky, Jul 31, 2015
    I tried that. The problem is that the battery lug will end up on the top, very close to the engine block. I am worried about a short.

    The way it would fit is by rotating the starter away from the block. But since the plate is flush against the gear body, I will not bc able to install the third, middle bolt to hold the starter.


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  10. i-velocita

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    #10 i-velocita, Jul 31, 2015
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  11. RichardAguinsky

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    #11 RichardAguinsky, Jul 31, 2015
    Yes. Those observations are correct. I cannot rotate the IMI High Torque 180 deg because the battery lug will be on the top.

    If I cannot fit the IMI by grinding off part of the boss, the IMI goes back and I get the Gustofson



    The Gustafson is well thought and designed.



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  12. mike996

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    #12 mike996, Jul 31, 2015
    I don't know anything at all about these starters but in looking at the pics, it looks to me like it's the same starter EXCEPT for the arrangement of the positive terminal. If you cut that terminal a bit short, leaving enough to attach the cable/bolt, wouldn't it then clear the block? It only needs to clear by a fraction of an inch since there is no flexing of the starter/terminal in relation to the engine block.
     
  13. i-velocita

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    #13 i-velocita, Jul 31, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2015
    The Gustafson starters have a lifetime warranty compared to the 1 year warranty of the IMI Hi-Torque starters.

    The Hi-Torque starters look better made though - they have a proprietary face plate (covers the armature gear and idler gear) that bolts to the indexable mounting flange. Gustafson starters (and other gear reduction brands that fit Ferrari) just machine the existing Denso face plate and mount the indexable mounting flange directly. This is why you can see exposed bolts and machined casting surfaces on Gustafson and some others.
     
  14. i-velocita

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    #14 i-velocita, Jul 31, 2015
    Might work but the terminal extension with offset lug and insulating cover is a more elegant solution. Also, you don't have to stretch the battery cable as far. Gustafson addressed this issue nicely. I would just copy.
     
  15. smg2

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    #15 smg2, Jul 31, 2015
    I had one of the (Gustafson) starter overheat and the epoxy casing came apart internally, on a very high comp engine build. They replaced it without question even though the starter had been purchased 2yrs prior. The new one has been going strong with zero issues since.
     
  16. Wade

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    #16 Wade, Jul 31, 2015
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  17. Wade

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    #17 Wade, Jul 31, 2015
  18. Wade

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    #18 Wade, Jul 31, 2015
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    However, this starter didn't fix my problem (intermittent no crank), but the Dave Helms fuse box did. Never had a problem again after that (since 2010). But I sold the car a few months ago...

    By looking at the configurations of all three items (engine block, mount flange and starter) you can figure out how it'll go together. But again, the big cable ends up in an awkward location.

    Here you can see the rotated mount flange. Notice that the big "lug" is now almost even with the mount bolt.
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  19. RichardAguinsky

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    #19 RichardAguinsky, Aug 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thank you all for the pictures and description of the Gustafson starter!

    Now I understand how the Gustafson is mounted, why it works and why the IMI Hi Torque doesn't work.

    If the Gustafson does not mount properly, you just rotate the plate. The gear box is machined so the bolts can go through the plate and not hit the gear box. All three bolts can be used. The screws are long and pass through the plate approx 1/4"

    In the IMI Hi-Torque, the gearbox is flush with the mounting plate. If I rotate the flange to the point that the starter mounts, one of the bolts that mounts the starter to the bell housing will hit against the gear box. See picture below.

    Even though the plate is indexed, there is always one or two holes where the bolt cannot go through all the way.

    1) I can mount the starter with only two bolts, the top and bottom. But not the center.

    2) i can mount with two upper and lower bolts and the third one with a separator, less thread on this one.

    3) Or, I can grind off the boss feature from the block. Which is approx 1/4" if aluminum.


    With all these headaches mounting it, limited warranty, I am stuck with RMA and shipping costs back, I would not recommend this starter to anyone.
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  20. Martin308GTB

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    #20 Martin308GTB, Aug 1, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
    I would not even think about such a solution to make a bad designed or manufactured part fit.
    Send it back, write off the shipping costs as learning the hard way and leave appropriate ebay feedback.
    This seller has a lot of negative feedback for selling junk and bad customer service. I would have been cautious.
    BTW; customer unfriendly return policies you have in the U.S.
    Over here the seller has to pay return shipping cost if an item was more than EUR 40.00 and doesn't fit or even if you don't like it.

    Best Regards
    Martin
     
  21. i-velocita

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    #21 i-velocita, Aug 1, 2015
    Returning the IMI starter may be easiest. Or you can substitute a shorter mounting bolt.
     
  22. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #22 andyww, Aug 1, 2015
    Not sure I am understanding the problem here. There is surely no advantage in the bolt protruding beyond the mounting plate so why not cut it to the required length?
     
  23. RichardAguinsky

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    #23 RichardAguinsky, Aug 1, 2015

    Good point. There is plenty of thread in the plate.

    I'll leave the original bolt alone and get a shorter one or add a spacer on the side of the head. One last try before returning the starter.







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  24. i-velocita

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    #24 i-velocita, Aug 1, 2015
    Actually, Rare Electrical, the eBay seller of IMI starters, has better feedback than British Classics, the eBay seller of Gustafson starters.
     
  25. abarks

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    #25 abarks, Aug 1, 2015
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