Help! Have I destroyed my engine (348)?

Ahhhh yes....the legend of "cam belt failure". It's been talked about, debated, hashed, re-hashed, over and over again. It's like a tree crashing through your roof into your house...it probably won't ever happen but you know it will...eventually. Sometime. But you sure don't tear off and replace your roof and rafters every 3 years to prevent such, now do you? Most Ferrari owners are so skiddish of cam belt failure they crap their pants every time the engine makes a not-so-funny sound. Ah, but this occurence is more legend than anything, and makes for lots of dialog that reminds me of ghost stories we used to share in my pup tent growing up.

If you fall into this category, you might consider the following: Rather than spending all of that money over and over and over on cam belt replacement, use some of that money to get yourself a good psychologist that can help you with obsessive compulsive behavior to prepare you for when that cam belt does fail, and you realize that engines are just like almost everything else man has created. They can be fixed. And at half what all those crazy cam belt changes cost you.

Don't worry. Be happy.

Oh crap...I'll continue this later...I think my cam belt just failed.

 

I have heard of a guy doing his own belts and having a hard time getting them on because he didn't totally retract the tensioners. So he forced the belts on over the tensioner bearings by using a pipe over the bearing like a shoe-horn, stretching, and then sliding the belt on. Granted he didn't use anything sharp against the belt, but could he have stressed or deformed the belt to the point where it's cycle life was suspect?

 

This is a very funny post by a person who does not understand engineering at all.

Many things on your car are designed as expendables, such as brake pads, etc. Do you just keep on driving when your brake pads have reached the disc and are grinding through the disc ... do you wait until your brakes fail! Ofcourse not you replace them when they are nearly worn out.

A cam belt is not a permanent method for controlling valve timing, ie. the belt has a designed life. Yes Ferrari have probably erred on the side of caution and maybe to make some extra cash (?), but they do not want valves to hit pistons and for the engine to be destroyed.

Same as if you had a timing chain instead of a belt, they do wear out. Do you wait until the chain fails and ends up in the sump or do you replace? ... people that are simpathetic to machines replace before a failure.

Basically it comes down to the fact that Ferrari are TRYING to make their cars reliable by giving owners a PREVENTATIVE maintenance schedule ... instead of just sitting back and waiting for a failure.

Your attitude is rediculous. Yes the services cost a lot of money BUT have you ever added up how much the petrol the car consumes has cost .... save a fncken fortune by never starting the car and using it!!!! Infact why change the oil too ... **** that costs money!

Just think Ferrari could save themselves a fortune by NOT writing maintenance documents, not having service departments and just letting the owners drive their cars into the ground and then buy a NEW one when the old one craps out.

I cannot believe somebody who is intelligent enough to turn on a computer and can find this site has such a backward attitude to vehicle maintenance ... and please God make Ferrari bring out a pushrod (chain driven camshaft) diesel engine soon for these sort of people ... then they will never have to open the bonnet or have it serviced.

EDIT: The other thing you are forgetting too is that the valve timing will be out as you drive way past the service interval (yes these belts stretch and the teeth wear) and thus your car (that you do not care about anyway) will not be performing properly ... thus yep save yourself a bit of money but why own a Ferrari that is off tune, etc.

I bet you never bled your brakes too ... why bother it probably works out more expensive than paying off the person you run over.

EDIT2: Another thing you have not thought of in your cleverness is that when the cambelt breaks and lets say you were giving it a nice rev. Thus valves hit pistons and say a conrod gives up and pokes a hole in the block. No problem you say I'll just chuck in another engine. Yep good idea ... until you come to sell the car. You will loose a fortune on resale with a mis-matched numbered Ferrari as yep these things are important to car enthusiasts. The first question will be what happened to the original engine? ... you say I never maintained it and thus it failed ... and all you will hear is the feet of potential owners running away. You ofcourse will be able to yell after them that financially it all made sense ... but they will never hear that because they will believe (quite rightly) that the rest of the car has been miss-treated with the same unbelieveable attitude.

Thus smarty have you taken that factor into account in your fancy (obviously a soulless bean counter) calculations.


Carguy,

Yes that belt will probably be damaged. If you cannot do the job properly, don't do it ... costs far more in the long run. Really is not a complicated job ... but sounds like this person was out of his depth.

Pete

 

Proper maintenance is what the manufacturer specifies, not you or I, but the manufacturer. The know what they designed everything to do ... Anything else is NOT proper maintenance. That is why cars have service books, for those like me who believe in preventative maintenance ... and thus can purchase a car with the service book completed.

A. A roof is NOT designed as an expendable item ... a cambelt is.

B. A home air condititioner SHOULD have its filters cleaned when it states. My one at home has a light that indicates when the filter is blocked. You ofcouse would ignore that and keep on using the uncleaned filter and wonder why your air conditioner is not working very well.

C. A watch does not (as far as I know) have a preventative maintenance schedule.

Lastly rubber perishes over time, that is why they need to be replaced. Just like if you buy a brand new tyre and NEVER use it but store it for 5 years. That tyre will NOT be as good as a newly made one.

I could call you names, and man I want too! as I find incredulous that people exist that think like you ... but that would be immature.

Pete

 

If what you say is true as the mechanic said it. Then I say to you , "do yourself a favor and get a new mechanic". That guy has no idea what he is doing or he is a crook. 1) you can't get the cam covers off to adjust your bellts without taking the engine or gas tank out. You can reindex a cam cog but that is extreemy unlikey that he did that. you would need to pin your shafts to loosen the cogs then bring your motor to TDC and the shafts to their marks on the 1st journal then reindex the pin. Even after that you could be off since the pins and a limited adjutment of only a few degrees. 2) you cannot see all valves via the exhaust ports. 3) you can't measure valve runout from this position, 4) you can't see gaulled guides, 5) you can't see minor bent valves, 6) you can't see sticking valves, 7 you can't see damaged seats. etc. You need to do a leakdown test period to narrow your scope of repair or else you will end up paying big bucks to rebuild the entire 2 head assembly. You are getting set up for a rippoff.

 

well said Billybob.

 

I agree...The belt jumping a tooth is rare and almost unheard of. I would get a second opinion from another dealer or F mechanic.


In theory if the cam belt did jump only one tooth you could adjust the timing from the distributor so that the car would run better but not perfect. Maybe the tech did that. What do you guys think. I have done this before on my Honda CRX when I was 16 and it run okay but wouldnt pass smog.

 

This will adjust ignition timing but not fix the camshaft timing ...

Pete

 

Good point, you are right...That is why I wont own any high end car without a warranty, I am always nervous it will break but with a warranty the dealer has to fix it...wide open until the warranty is done and then get a new one. If only life was that simple.

Good luck with the repairs

 

The only time I've ever seen a belt jump a tooth (not on a Ferrari), the teeth on the belt were stripped and the belt was in need of replacement, if it jumps with the tension it's under then it will damage the belt.

FWIW I Agree with fatbillybob there's something not right in what you're being told, and it sounds like you're about to get ripped off, that is if you haven't been already

Now I have a couple of questions for those that know the internals of these engines.

Am I correct in assuming it is an interference engine?

Would a one tooth difference cause the valves to hit the pistons?

 

From the sound of that, your engine is still in the car? Sheesh... reading this thread takes longer than pulling the engine and just doing a proper job.

 

gredinger - Have you considered... dropping and disassembling the engine at this point? That would remove all doubt and you should easily be able to pinpoint the problem. Guessing is fun but doesn't actually pinpoint what's wrong. Besides, you can't fix it by just talking about it.

As far as cost I would contact a trustworthy mechanic and ask what they charge, but there's no way of knowing because you really don't know what's wrong yet - again this is guesswork. Of course if you decide to tackle this yourself it will only cost you your time and garage space. If you do decide to do this yourself please post pics so we can all learn something from this! I Wish you success,
Shan

 

Please tell me that wasn't a Ferrari owner.

My first experience with cambelts was replacing one on a Pinto. As in most engines, if the belt goes, no big deal - the engine doesn't grenade.
I had never seen one before, and it took me awahile to firgure out proper installation, but I wouldn't even consider trying to stretch it on - and using a pipe to lever the belt on a 12 cyl. ferrari seems a bit... dumb.

Suspect? I wouldn't even drive the pup on an interference engine!

 

Hello Down Under! But Pete...how do you REALLY feel about me?

 

In Texas, we are lucky to get 20 years out of a roof, and no roofing manufacture gives more than a prorated 15 year warentee on the shingles: So, down here, roofs are a regular maintanence item.

Mine wants to go back for an ultrasonic cleaning every year and new oil in the bearings. Its not preventive, since the watch lets you know it wants this by running slow.

 

Sorry if it seemed like I was slamming you....definitely not my intention. To pull the cam covers, heads, etc you will probably want to replace all the seals, gaskets and o-rings that have to be removed in the process. There's a number of them but all together might cost $300-$500..?? to replace. Also throw in about $80 for a tube of Dow-Corning 730 if you like. It would be nice to see pictures of the actual area of concern once everything is broken down and the cause of the noise is found. Actually anything you can document would be great and would educate us alll.

 

I don't think gredinger's car is a 348, it just doesn't add up.

Post #9, regarding the cam belt cover: "It is just a plastic cover". The 348 cam belt cover pieces are not plastic, they're aluminum.

Post #58: "Since the big cam belt cover already was broken on a couple of places where the two small covers are attached, we decided to remove the big cover even if it meant cutting it loose". How in the world does the cam belt cover get broken, and how in the world could you possibly remove it from the car without removing the engine?

Post #58: "Then the tensioners are available." The 348 engine only has one tensioner.

Am I totally wrong?

 

Yes you are wrong on all counts. The 348 does indeed have plastic timing covers. All Ferrari's after the 328 was finished production, went to plastic incluing the 12 cylinder cars. Yes there is only one tensioner but 2 idler bearing that must be replaced (one is the tensioner bearing itself and the other is the idler). The cam belt cover get broken because they are plastic with threaded inserts molded into them. Many times the plastic that holds the insert snaps because the allen head screw was either over tightend at one point or just becomes sezied.

 

I just went out to the garage and scratched the cam belt cover caps (top of the engine) on my 348 with a nail. They are aluminum. I scratched the actual belt cover as far as I could reach, and as well as I can tell, it's aluminum. Pic isn't my car, it's from a book, but mine is just like this.

 

Hi Tom. My timing covers are definitely aluminum as well. I guess they switched to plastic some point?

 

Thanks Mitch for clearly explaining that. Thus an intelligent owner would inspect their roof at say 15 years ... and if it looks bad fix it BEFORE the roof caved in. Our Texas mate would just replaced the house

Wow, must be a fancy watch .


huskerNtexas,

I have said enough ...

Pete

 

NO distributor. 348's ignition timing is regulated by ECU's